Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: iNano78 on December 08, 2016, 08:39:42 AM
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Water Elemental (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVX2fhh4vv8)
22 mana; Level 6
16 life; "infinite" Armor (Resilient)... which is statistically similar to 32 life with no Armor
Burnproof, Hydro Immunity, Non-living, Resilient (basically only takes critical damage, although Corrodes are dealt as direct damage), Unstoppable (Unmovable, Uncontainable, cannot be Hindered), Frost +3 (LOL)
5 dice quick Hydro melee attack that Pushes on 4+. "When Water Elemental Pushes a creature, after the push it may immediately move to the creature's zone."
On one hand...
- You can't Tanglevine/Force Hold it.
- You can't Poison it.
- You can't Burn it.
- You can't Push it.
- It isn't Slow, so Teleporting it away doesn't do much, especially since you can't Hinder it.
- You can't really swarm it, partly because it can attack a creature, Push that creature, then follow the Pushed creature for free, inching ever closer to the target it seeks.
- It isn't Legendary or Unique... so god forbid your opponent casts a second one while you're still trying to figure out how to deal with the first!
- Despite lacking Psychic Immunity, (Mass) Sleep is not an option since it requires a Living target.
On the other hand...
- It isn't Psychic Immune, so Mind Control, Charm, etc, can work... but they're pretty niche spells. (Maybe not now that this thing is in the wild!)
- You can wall it into a corner... assuming you can corner it.
- Leviathan Scale Armor will soften its bite, but it will still roll 3 dice and Push on a 6+. Neither Waterfall Cloak nor Elemental Cloak help at all (aside from the latter providing Armor +1).
- Assuming it doesn't Guard, Flyers can attack it, and it can't use Eagle Wings (non-living), so the Water Elemental in itself doesn't have any built-in counters against Flyers.
- Eagleclaw Boots or the Paladin's shiny new Steadfast Boots are good to stop your Mage from getting pushed around by the Elemental. That might not sound like a big deal... until it starts Bashing your Mage into a wall turn after turn!
Any other ideas or suggestions on how to deal with this... thing?
Lucky for me, when used to push a creature into my Mage's zone for a free move action, it often "accidentally" killed the creature and therefore didn't get to trigger the Push'n'Move ability. But since it isn't Slow and can't be Hindered, it didn't matter that much. It's a menacing thing, always seeping towards you.
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Akrio's Favor and Gloves of Skill are decent against resilient. I also Marked for Death to try and get extra dice out of it.
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Akrio's Favor and Gloves of Skill are decent against resilient. I also Marked for Death to try and get extra dice out of it.
Huh. Never noticed that [mwcard=MW1E27]Marked for Death[/mwcard] works on Nonliving.
As I think about it, the Water Elemental question is similar to "What do you do about [mwcard=DNC22]Zombie Brute[/mwcard]?" - except the Brute is Lumbering (always Hindered) and Psychic Immune (can't be Sleep/Mind Control/Charm'ed).
Is it really worth taking the time to kill it? 16 critical damage will require throwing 32 dice its way, on average (including your Akiro/Skill rerolls). That's like killing a second Mage - albeit one without Armor or any of the enchantments that require a Living target. I was hoping to find a way to neutralize it or at least limit its effectiveness without necessarily killing it.
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Killed it in one turn with a Paladin. Made it my enemy and stood in it's way while Guarding. It swung at me and I revealed Eye for an Eye. Then countrike, then regular swing with my sword. Using Akiros Favor and the challenge re-roll I toasted it.
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Killed it in one turn with a Paladin. Made it my enemy and stood in it's way while Guarding. It swung at me and I revealed Eye for an Eye. Then countrike, then regular swing with my sword. Using Akiros Favor and the challenge re-roll I toasted it.
That must have required some above-average rolls (including its self-inflicted damage). Did you have boots that made you Unmovable, or did it whiff its Push roll?
(Guards often aren't good against it since it can Push the Guard out of the zone, thus dodging the counterstrike)
Good call on Eye for an Eye, though. It gets around the "infinite Armor" issue nicely.
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I experienced a game as priestess against a wizard a long time ago. Not that the wizard really had issues against priestess, but a spectacular situation still occurred.
Brogan got one shot by a hydra.
So before anyone makes a 'how to deal with Brogan thread' please follow this advice:
Kill him with one full round attack from a Hydra.
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Killed it in one turn with a Paladin. Made it my enemy and stood in it's way while Guarding. It swung at me and I revealed Eye for an Eye. Then countrike, then regular swing with my sword. Using Akiros Favor and the challenge re-roll I toasted it.
That must have required some above-average rolls (including its self-inflicted damage). Did you have boots that made you Unmovable, or did it whiff its Push roll?
(Guards often aren't good against it since it can Push the Guard out of the zone, thus dodging the counterstrike)
Good call on Eye for an Eye, though. It gets around the "infinite Armor" issue nicely.
Yeah I was wearing my Unmovable and Anchored Boots. If you're gonna call out an elemental, bring the gear. I might of had Bear Strength and Dawnbreakers ring on too. Was swinging 7 dice on the thing after it took damage.
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I experienced a game as priestess against a wizard a long time ago. Not that the wizard really had issues against priestess, but a spectacular situation still occurred.
Brogan got one shot by a hydra.
So before anyone makes a 'how to deal with Brogan thread' please follow this advice:
Kill him with one full round attack from a Hydra.
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So...
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You're saying I shouldn't just cast [mwcard=MWBG1A03]Hurl Meteorite[/mwcard] and roll [2*] on every die?
'Cause that's my usual go-to. :o
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Paladin has it easy vs big brutes. Nature tends to be problematic with resilient dudes.
I've been taking Leviathan armor more and more in my books. Dragonscale vs Leviathan is such a tough choice now :'(
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ב"ה
On the other hand...
- It isn't Psychic Immune, so Sleep is an option... but it's definitely worthwhile for your opponent to wake it up (or otherwise remove the Sleep condition), so unless you put Sleep on a Wand/Spore, this will only be a short-term delay tactic.
Actually, sleep could only target a "non-mage living creature", so it couldn't target the water elemental.
About the Paladin-
A standard Paladin probably have his sword for 4 dice, that become 6 since the elemental in non-living, plus 2 from bear streanth, plus one from dawnbreaker ring, plus one from hand of bim shalla, and plus one from Malakai's basilica for a total of 11 dice. Assuming a reroll of any non-critical dice would make an avarage damage of 5/6 times the number of dice, which means 9+1/6 average damage with each attack. Making one attack and one counterstrike against the elemental would take it to 18+1/3 average damage, which is statisticly enough to kill the water elemental (on an average roll, so no need for special luck). If he got akiro's favor, that could mitigate the risk of low rolls a little bit. Adding eye for an eye to this deal, it would actually need really poor rolls for the elemental not to be destroyed.
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Paladin reroll is once per round.
Im fairly certain the that the math for the average crit damage a paladin can do with the opportunity of rerolling is pretty complex.
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ב"ה
Im fairly certain the that the math for the average crit damage a paladin can do with the opportunity of rerolling is pretty complex.
Not against resilient creatures. Resilient creatures and creatures without armor are always easy.
On a standard roll you have probability on 1/6 to get 1 crit, 1/6 to get 2 crit and 2/3 to get nothing, so you get 1/2 damage from each die, to a total of 1/2 the number of dice you roll.
Since we assume the paladin tries to maximize the average damage, the paladin wouldn't reroll the 1 critical or 2 critical (since 1 and 2 are greater than 1/2) but only the dice thast didn't roll any critical damage. So we have 1/6 chance to get 2 crit on the first roll, 1/6 to get 1 crit on the first roll, and 2/3 chance to reroll.
The rerolled dice are simple rolled, so they have an average damage of 1/2, for a total of:
1/6*2 + 1/6*1 + 2/3*1/2 = 5/6.
(2 crit on first roll) (1 crit on first roll) (rerolling) (total)
Each die give an avarage damage of 5/6, so the total is 5/6 times the number of dice.
Paladin reroll is once per round.
So the choice when to reroll with challenge and when to reroll with akiro's favor could boost the average damage a lot. it really changes th
The worst case is if we assume the paladin use challenge rerolls on the non-crits of the first attack regardless of the amount of crits rolled, and akiro's favor isn't used would be 9+1/6 for the first attack and 5+1/2 for the second attack for a total of 14+2/3 (which is almost enough). Since the paladin had akiro's favor, and the choice whether to hold the challenge rerolls for the second attack (if he already got many crits), it would go higher. And with eye for an eye it is again most likely that the elemental would die anyway.
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The variance when rolling dice against a resilient creature is a lot higher though due to the 2/3 chance of doing 0 damage. That's why you often feel like you have either horrible or amazing luck when battling resilient creatures. Creatures without armor, like Earth elemental, will need a more consistent amount of dice.
I've done 6 critical damage with a 4 dice attack against a brute this week, but I've had plenty of other games where I feel like my dice don't do anything at all.
So, akiro's favor and the paladin's ability are especially powerful to take out big resilient creatures like that.
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OK, so a good option for countering a Water Elemental is:
[spellbook]
[spellbookheader]
[spellbookname]Paladin[/spellbookname]
[mage]Paladin[/mage]
[/spellbookheader]
[spells]
[spellclass]Equipment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=mw1q27]1 x Dawnbreaker Ring[/mwcard]
1 x Sword of Radiance
1 x Steadfast Boots
1 x Radiant Breastplate
[spellclass]Enchantment[/spellclass]
1 x Eye for an Eye
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFE02]1 x Akiro's Favor[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E01]1 x Bear Strength[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Conjurations[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MW1J08]1x Hand of Bim-Shalla[/mwcard]
1 x Malakai's Basilica
[/spells]
[cost]Total cost: Lost track[/cost]
[/spellbook]
... who Challenged the Water Elemental (thus gets to reroll). If you have all that stuff, you're good to go.
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Water Elemental is susceptible to Lullaby, Chant of Rage, Song of Love and Agony as well as it's attacks being avoidable worth armoring against.
Another "I win" vs a Water elemental is a guarding Plant creature or anything else with Hydro Immunity...including another Water Elemental.
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Water Elemental is susceptible to Lullaby, Chant of Rage, Song of Love and Agony as well as it's attacks being avoidable worth armoring against.
Another "I win" vs a Water elemental is a guarding Plant creature or anything else with Hydro Immunity...including another Water Elemental.
Good ideas, Puddnhead, although I'm not sure I'd be willing to spend 5 mana (before any discounts) to gamble on Lullaby for two 50-50 chances at Stun conditions (and in the case of failure, two 50-50 chances at the Elemental not being able to attack via Daze). The math works out well on average, but it's scary leaving it up to chance in those "must not get hit/pushed this round" situations.
Along the lines of Agony, there's also Shrink, and anything that can deal Stagger tokens. Unfortunately Weak won't work, as it's a Poison condition.
Then there's Block, Glancing Blow, Redirect, Reverse Attack, Eye for an Eye, Divine Reversal, etc. They'll help to negate some damage, but generally won't affect the Push.
It's too bad [mwcard=DNE03] Stumble[/mwcard] and [mwcard=MWSTX2FFE05] Fumble[/mwcard] won't work on the Elemental (Unstoppable = Unmovable). If they worked, I'd seriously consider including them just as a counter for this guy - and a few other really big buddies. The same problem exists vs Titanodon; can't use Stumble to prevent him from Trampling, since he's also Unmovable.
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Water Elemental is susceptible to Lullaby, Chant of Rage, Song of Love and Agony as well as it's attacks being avoidable worth armoring against.
Another "I win" vs a Water elemental is a guarding Plant creature or anything else with Hydro Immunity...including another Water Elemental.
Good ideas, Puddnhead, although I'm not sure I'd be willing to spend 5 mana (before any discounts) to gamble on Lullaby for two 50-50 chances at Stun conditions (and in the case of failure, two 50-50 chances at the Elemental not being able to attack via Daze). The math works out well on average, but it's scary leaving it up to chance in those "must not get hit/pushed this round" situations.
Not saying your reason for lullaby isn't valid. Personally I've had amazing success with Lullaby. I've put 2 in my Siren and may go up to 3!
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Water Elemental is susceptible to Lullaby, Chant of Rage, Song of Love and Agony as well as it's attacks being avoidable worth armoring against.
Another "I win" vs a Water elemental is a guarding Plant creature or anything else with Hydro Immunity...including another Water Elemental.
Good ideas, Puddnhead, although I'm not sure I'd be willing to spend 5 mana (before any discounts) to gamble on Lullaby for two 50-50 chances at Stun conditions (and in the case of failure, two 50-50 chances at the Elemental not being able to attack via Daze). The math works out well on average, but it's scary leaving it up to chance in those "must not get hit/pushed this round" situations.
Not saying your reason for lullaby isn't valid. Personally I've had amazing success with Lullaby. I've put 2 in my Siren and may go up to 3!
Lullaby is basically a 75% chance that the attack will fail. How is that not worth it?
0.5 chance of stun + 0.5 chance of daze*0.5 chance of missing=0.75 chance of no successful attack.
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ב"ה
So we have solutions for paladins (challenge) and druids (everything is water immune anyway).
I guess beastmasters will just take kralathor more often.
Warlocks are likely to enfeeble that thing, so it couldn't move and attack (or agony if the damage is what you want to prevent).
Forcemasters could use their defense against the attacks of a water elemental, but otherwise have the same problem of killing zombie brutes they have against zombie necromancers.
Necromancer have their own stock of ridiculously unkillable resilient things. 2 zombie brutes cost the same as a single water elemental, and they more than a match for him.
Wizards could banish that creature to delay the trouble it brings for 3 rounds. His answers for resilient are slow (hydra and devouring jelly), so he will need some good positioning if he try to kill it.
Priests and Priestesses could use their creatures with defense to guard (there are at least 3 different non-pest holy creatures with defense). They also have many things that deal more damage to nonliving creature and have a very good of dazing or stunning them.
Warlords will bring their dwarf panzergardes to defend against it, most warlords have at least 2 of these anyway. Warlords will have the same problem killing it as they have against zombies.
Another general solution is to simply go for the mage, the same way you do it against zombie Necromancers (who's creatures are resilient just as well).
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First time I played against Water Elemental I killed with with Eye For An Eye.