Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: echephron on June 16, 2014, 08:50:07 PM
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(Uses FIF) Of course I mean the barracks and battleforge with the warlord. Note that Generals Signet Ring(SoldiersRing) deployed from battleforge gives you an immediate discount on your barracks soldier. With a double spawnpoint, you can get away with using a meditation amulet as well (based on personal preference, so don't focus on the meditation amulet part if you are a hater :P). It goes like this:
19 mana start:
Turn1: -8BattleForge -7ConstructionYard
-15=4=15 effective mana(1 on forge, 1 on yard) on turn 2
Turn2: -4mediation+3meditate-12barracks
-13=2=15 effect mana(1 on forge, 1 on yard, 2 on barracks) at the end of turn 2
Turn3:deploy -3SoldierRing and a soldier...
At the point, with the ring, you have an effective channelling of 14 not counting the meditation amulet:
9 base + 1 BattleForge + 1ConstructionYard + 2 Barracks +1 SoldierRing = 14
From here you can do a ton of different things, but the idea is deploy soldiers, conjurations(walls, outposts, Altar of Domination) and equipment up your warlord. If you go with meditation amulet, it might be too late to pull out Eisenach's Forge Hammer efficiently.
Thoughts?
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I've been contemplating a variety of Warlord openings. I haven't really looked at Battle Forge + Barracks openings (one or the other, but not both), but I can see that working. Now that you've posted this, I'll probably give it a try at some point.
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This will probably work well except for the typical hard agro that give this kind of build problems.
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I'm thinking of some alternate ways to do turn one, that make it look like a more aggressive build and can switch into a strong early build immediately by foregoing the barracks.
Turn one needs to have the battleforge and to save enough to be able to have a barracks and outpost after turn 2(end with 3 or 7 mana on turn 1, depending on if you placed an outpost).
So do a turn one classic "Doublemove and NearCentre Battleforge= 11 mana left" . If you go for barracks, take a step back, cast it and an outpost, and you might have enough for a <5 equipment. Or you can ignore the barracks plan and focus on immediacy. They will think you are doing agro after turn 1.
I still prefer my original method though, so that you can meditate while you have 2 spawnpoints and some familiars (goblin builders for the win!). You can still do my way, but you will lose about 3 mana and one action from my original plan by taking this route.
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Double spawnpoint with the Warlord had always been in the back of my mind, but I didn't think it was possible to make that costly of an opening work so I never tried it. However, last night I had a chance to give it a go, so I modified my Warlord book and this is what it ended up looking like:
[spellbook]
[spellbookheader]
[spellbookname]Double Spawnpoint Warlord (pre-FiF)[/spellbookname]
[mage]Warlord[/mage]
[/spellbookheader]
[spells]
[spellclass]Attack[/spellclass]
[mwcard=FWA03]1 x Hail of Stones[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNA01]2 x Acid Ball[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWA04]1 x Hurl Boulder[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Conjuration[/spellclass]
[mwcard=FWW01]1 x Wall of Pikes[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWJ04]2 x Garrison Post[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWJ03]1 x Barracks[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1j04]1 x Battle Forge[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Creature[/spellclass]
[mwcard=FWC05]4 x Goblin Grunt[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWC15]1 x Thorg, Chief Bodyguard[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNC14]1 x Skeletal Knight[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNC15]1 x Skeletal Minion[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKC07]1 x Dwarf Panzergarde[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWC11]3 x Orc Butcher[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWC06]3 x Goblin Slinger[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWC07]1 x Grimson Deadeye, Sniper[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Enchantment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=FWE09]1 x Standard Bearer[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1e36]1 x Rhino Hide[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1e09]1 x Agony[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1e29]1 x Nullify[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWE06]2 x Fortified Position[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1e31]1 x Poisoned Blood[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Equipment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=FWQ08]1 x Ring of Command[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q15]1 x Leather Boots[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWQ05]1 x Helm of Command[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNQ09]1 x Wand of Healing[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNQ07]1 x Veteran's Belt[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q16]1 x Leather Gloves[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q06]1 x Dragonscale Hauberk[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWQ06]1 x Horn of Gothos[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNQ10]1 x Meditation Amulet[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Incantation[/spellclass]
[mwcard=mw1i28]1 x Teleport[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i02]1 x Battle Fury[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i26]1 x Sleep[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i06]2 x Dispel[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i20]1 x Purify[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i17]2 x Minor Heal[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i12]1 x Force Push[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i25]1 x Shift Enchantment[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i07]1 x Dissolve[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i04]2 x Charge[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i19]2 x Piercing Strike[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWI06]2 x Power Strike[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNI03]1 x Reassemble[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWI08]2 x Sniper Shot[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i18]1 x Perfect Strike[/mwcard]
[/spells]
[cost]Total cost: 120 pts[/cost]
[/spellbook]
Obviously I haven't worked every kink out (probably don't have room for Grimson, etc) because I've only played it once, but I was surprised how good it felt.
My initial turns went like this:
Turn 1: (19 mana) Move, QC barracks in corner, Final QC Garrison Post in NC
Turn 2: (12 mana) QC battleforge in my mages zone, Final QC Garrison Post in left zone (0 mana)
Turn 3: (9 mana) Deploy Slinger (enemy mage was in range), Deploy Amulet, QC Command ring, Meditate (4mana)
Turn 4: (13 mana) etc etc
I really like how the opening went. It fit perfectly into 2 turns, gave max channel on the barracks, and got out all the action providers/mana makers.
I like even more how it felt to have access to battleforge and barracks at the same time. I never liked having to use actions to bring out the helm, horn, etc, because there was no immediate effect and if i wanted to use them the same turn it would take all my actions that turn (qc it, qc its effect). With the forge, it was MUCH more manageable (obviously). What was even better was the ability to stack armor on my mage at the same time as bringing out relevant soldiers. I had always felt pressured action-wise trying to support my troops through commands while trying to buff myself at the same time, and battleforge feels like the missing link to solve that problem.
The great part about battleforge + barracks is that, even if some does go hyper aggro on you, you can easily drop armor on yourself and bring out a guard without having to spend any actions, which leaves you open to freely meditate and command your troops. Without battleforge, you can't give yourself armor, support your troops, and meditate without giving one of them up (and its usually the armor).
All in all, I really liked it. I know it wasn't the same start as yours, but I think it was a little cheaper and close enough to playtest.
Disclaimer: the friend I played against has only been playing for a few months, so she doesn't play optimally, but I pull tons of punches when I play against her to even things out.
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I don't know if it's in FiF, but Altar of the Iron Guard would go nicely here, esp. against agro.
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I played the book again against a much more experienced player today and had less success.
I did fine and eventually stabilized (after taking 5 damage and losing some troops) but I don't think meditation amulet can float the massive investments in the beginning of the build against a good player who will easily get the action advantage on you with more creatures. The actions provided by battleforge are nice but they don't make up for the fact that you NEED a strong board presence via creatures with the Warlord.
So my final thoughts on this build:
1). Like other heavy investment builds, if you can survive the initially aggro, you can get into a winnable position. ...but it doesn't feel good lol
2). Meditation amulet doesn't make up for the initial costs, but it gets sorta close.
3). The actions from battleforge are nice, but they aren't as good as simply summoning more troops, which the Warlord gets rewarded for anyway through his card pool and vet (in the case of Bloodwave).
Sadly, while it was fun to try and feels nice to have a battleforge out to stack armor and provide equips at no action costs, I don't think this build is viable. And my initial investment was less than the one the OP suggested. After FiF comes out I think the 2 Warlord builds will be barracks + garrison post(16 mana start) and battleforge + eisenach's hammer (16 mana start). The first likely works best with Bloodwave, the second with ATW.
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This is not fast enough for a 3 round Warlock Lord of Fire opening......
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This is not fast enough for a 3 round Warlock Lord of Fire opening......
Well, it's not fast enough against a lot of things it seems. It simply takes too much investment to get rolling, and even by the time you do your back is already against the wall doing damage control.
I really wish it worked, but it's just too expensive to recover from.
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One of the things with this type of build that you have to keep in mind is that you may have to abandon the primary plan and switch into defense if your opponent is extremely aggressive. With a turn 1 Battle Forge, you should be in decent position to do that by simply playing armor out of forge and playing creatures instead of Barracks. If you start off with the Barracks and your opponent is aggressive, you can shrug and start playing creatures out of it and use your mage's actions to play armor. You can only afford to continue with the extremely economic plan if you aren't under massive immediate threat. As long as you have points of deviation that allow you to switch into defense, I don't see the problem. Now, it might be too slow anyway, but I'll need to see it in action to judge that.
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Having now tried a double Spawnpoint Warlord twice, I really like the idea. I didn't get the Barracks out in the second game due to early pressure, and I was nowhere close to getting the the full economy build going in either game, but I was still able to pull out a win built on the power of Orc Butchers and Goblin Alchemists. I realized part way through the first game that I need more ways to heal and more Orc Butchers/Goblin Alchemists.
The ability to strip targets of armor is just fantastic. The Goblin Alchemist would be good just based on the Corrode attack. In both games I stacked Corrodes on my opponent, and in one I used that to focus down a Steelclaw Grizzly.
Altar of Carnage allows you to really ramp econ late game, and it can pay you back much more rapidly than other economy cards, although you need a bunch of soldiers before it's worth considering. I played it in the first game, and it was generating 4-5 mana per turn for me, although the game only lasted a few more turns.
Runesmithing is awesome.
One of the things that's nice about a double Spawnpoint build is that it can be played in more different ways than a single Spawnpoint build. You CAN play both Spawnpoints, but you can also just play one or the other.
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Sounds cool.
I have been fiddling around with some Barracks and construction yard opening.
Round 2 i would probaly invest in a garrison post just to be able to place raxx in start zone for extra protection, and be able to deploy to NC and then actually go take benefit of my mage's +1melee.
If the opponent is very defensive i might go for amulet and meditate instead and delay the garrison post to round 3.
After construction yard gets some mana stacked i would invest in Big statue or Carnage.
Thats the plan atleast :)
I have a hard time seeing the warlord get away with investing 30+ mana the first 2 rounds in conjurations and amulet.
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I was surprised by how well the double spawnpoint works overall. Being able to deploy Meditation Amulet and General's Signet Ring to support the Barracks goes a long way to improve the action efficiency of getting everything going. While you might think spending 31 mana on conjurations and Meditation Amulet in the first 2 rounds would leave you crippled against a normal round 4-6 push, you're generating 16 mana/round at that point, and you can quickly get a few creatures down to meet the push while getting some armor on your mage.
You can't get away with it against a round 3 rush, but that's obvious. If your opponent rushes to NC turn 1 and casts Lord of Fire turn 2, it's easy to see that you'll need to deviate.
I need to test it out some more, but so far it's promising. I tried it with the Anvil Throne Warlord, but I'm thinking of switching to the Bloodwave Warlord, and then building the Anvil Throne Warlord to be more aggressive.
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The only mage that I have successfully been able to use a double spawnpoint build with is the necromancer.
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So far I like the double Spawnpoint Warlord better than the double Spawnpoint Necromancer I tried at one point.
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So the question is: what would be a good way to gain tempo against a warlock who goes for turn 2 adramelech while still playing 2 spawnpoints?
Do you think that block/brace yourself to stop the first attack and a guarding corazin would be enough to swing it back?
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Corazin would be a good counter.
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I would expect anything I bring out like this to be teleported or pushed out of the way. My opinion for a fast LoF opening is that you have to get some creatures out to guard as you will be dealing with a Lash of Fire and Lord of Fire if you do nothing to make him spend his QC he will use QC to continue buffing up. So you need to get the action advantage by bringing out two of three creatures, but that is really tough with a Double Spawnpoint opening.
You could always try the classic Wall of Thorns Push Push on the Warlock as they typically will not have armor on round two or three unless they have already learned that lesson, which is a good lesson to learn as it will slow them down just a bit.
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I tried the double spawnpoint once against the lady warlock. it did not go well. I'm considering throwing down a wall of earth in far centre to wall off me and my battle forge. I need somethign that will slow her down and break los for long range curses
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If you do battle forge + construction yard turn 1 and the enemy charges 2 and cast nothing then I would forget the barracks and go for grimson+Hawkeye and turn 3 maybe use a wall of earth to wall break los and you guard while grimson shoots the lord of fire.
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If you do battle forge + construction yard turn 1 and the enemy charges 2 and cast nothing then I would forget the barracks and go for grimson+Hawkeye and turn 3 maybe use a wall of earth to wall break los and you guard while grimson shoots the lord of fire.
I would not do grimson vs few bigs.
He WILL be teleported away and destroyed, or bigs will be teleported to him and destroy him if he has a face down.
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That's why you use walls to break Los. It only works vs a flyer big. Admittedly I haven't actually tested it, you may be right.
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That's why you use walls to break Los. It only works vs a flyer big. Admittedly I haven't actually tested it, you may be right.
The LoF will fly over the Wall and demolish the Sniper.
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Well my idea was the warlord would guard the sniper and the warlock couldn't mess with positioning since the walls keep the warlock out. But the whole thing didn't work anyway because after Battleforge+construction yard you can't afford Grimson turn 2 anyway.
Really the conclusion here is if your opponent is going to blitz you then don't go for double spawnpoints.
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Thorg is good against a big guy like that. His taunt forces Addy to move towards him and attack which can deny his full attack sweep, and Thorg has a 5 dice counter strike.
Thorg has 4 armor naturally, which will stand up well to attacks and he works well when supported. If he gets a vet token he us practically an iron golem with a taunt.
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I also think (for what it's worth) that Thorg would be a good creature to cast. Although still subject to being teleported away, his taunt may still work in the long run to help defend the mage (as pointed out before). Also, against a Warlock's aggressive approach, I would not even try more than the Battle Forge. You can set your book up for a double spawnpoint which might work well against some mages, but have a backup plan for these sorts of situations.
If you want to try to slow the Warlock down, you might try Mangler Caltrops in the NC on turn 1. He will either have to stop in your NC, go around them (which might allow you to dodge around them the other way), or use a more expensive and more valuable Teleport to bypass them. This won't do anything for Addy who can fly over them, but if you have a defender out, then you should be ok for a turn or two which bringing out armor or enchantments like Brace Yourself or Circle of Lightning.
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Really if you are being charged an iron golom is the best guard you can get. Plus harshforge plate and it becomes quite draining to maintain an offensive against you.