Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Fentum on July 02, 2013, 05:11:58 PM
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This is all about how we can spread the love ...
And I can see the love for MW online, but just looking at the MW module, it seems to be lacking. I don't think this is the kind of "love" people want to see when first picking up the game, but this is solely my opinion, and I would want to show new players something prettier, more elegant, and a more streamlined approach than what this has to offer.
A very strong analogy here is Vassal for boardgames and more particularly wargames. Publishers allow use of their IP by independent guys who design modules for their favourite games. That allows fans to play on line. I have never yet met a guy who played the game on Vassal without owning it in real life.
A case in point is Memoir 44. It was on Vassal for a long time. Helped build a strong following. The publishers then got serious and created their own official on line version. Slicker and more professional than the Vassal module. The publishers thanked the original Vassal module guys and moved it on. Bottom line was a bigger audience with happy players.
It is mental that there's no online spell book auditor, if not an actual game module...but wait. Cosworth has, with Spike's help I believe, created a fan made independent module for Mage Wars on OCTGN. The tragedy is that although the Mage Wars game and graphics work well, the actual overall system of OCTGN is a bit arcane in terms of loading games, and communicating.
Did I say 'a bit arcane' ?
Sounds as though Arcane Wonders should create a streamlined version...
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Sounds like the right word would be "archaic," not arcane.
Anyway, while I would like the opportunity to play MW online, I don't think it is right to pressure AW with that kind of expectation right now, and its certainly not right to use their copyrighted images on a third party program. I'd rather the company focus on establishing a solid presence in gaming communities in the real world before they move to online play. Hence, why I'm all for the Ambassador program.
I think people overstate the good that online play does for a game, honestly, particularly with board/card games. In my experience, word of mouth is still king when it comes to spreading the "good news" about a game. Nothing is really a substitute for personal interaction, and online play does nothing to further the game's approachability. That's why I like the forums a lot--the designers themselves often ask for community input, and that reveals their good intentions and amicability.
This reminds me of a German program called Cockatrice that was used to host fully illustrated MTG games online for a while, which Hasbro basically sued February of this year. I (when I was still playing Magic) certainly used it almost explicitly because Wizards of the Coast charges ridiculous prices for their product and I refuse to spend that much, especially due to the fact that unlike AW, WotC doesn't offer official "demo days" or events despite its enormous following. Not to mention that 99% of Magic cards are literally trash, competitively speaking.
Point being, as much as I would love to see online MW, I think it would be very bad for AW if they had to devote their comparably limited financial resources to resolving civil disputes that could arise from third party programs using their copyrighted material. I could maybe understand if AW's model for their products was similar to WotC's, but I've found most MW cards to be pretty useful in both casual and competitive settings, and that's key. With MTG, most of the time you buy a product, use it, and throw it away (unless you're very lucky and you open a 50$ bill). With MW, that's certainly not the case; most cards are valuable in any setting, so you don't gain much by trying to get around buying them.
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reddawn has a point about spreading the word. Online play makes it easier to get your "fix", but only works after you are hooked already. Asking AW for an online play program is optimistic at best because of the effort involved. Throwing something together in OCTGN or similar may take a short time, but I don't have to deal with the potentially disgruntled customers as it is a fan-made solution and that makes everyone a lot more accepting of errors and such.
An officially backed program would have to be professional in quality or it would reflect negatively on the game itself.
So I'd prefer for AW to make great expansions rather than getting into the computer game business.
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Sounds like the right word would be "archaic," not arcane.
Anyway, while I would like the opportunity to play MW online, I don't think it is right to pressure AW with that kind of expectation right now, and its certainly not right to use their copyrighted images on a third party program. I'd rather the company focus on establishing a solid presence in gaming communities in the real world before they move to online play. Hence, why I'm all for the Ambassador program.
I think people overstate the good that online play does for a game, honestly, particularly with board/card games. In my experience, word of mouth is still king when it comes to spreading the "good news" about a game. Nothing is really a substitute for personal interaction, and online play does nothing to further the game's approachability. That's why I like the forums a lot--the designers themselves often ask for community input, and that reveals their good intentions and amicability.
This reminds me of a German program called Cockatrice that was used to host fully illustrated MTG games online for a while, which Hasbro basically sued February of this year. I (when I was still playing Magic) certainly used it almost explicitly because Wizards of the Coast charges ridiculous prices for their product and I refuse to spend that much, especially due to the fact that unlike AW, WotC doesn't offer official "demo days" or events despite its enormous following. Not to mention that 99% of Magic cards are literally trash, competitively speaking.
Point being, as much as I would love to see online MW, I think it would be very bad for AW if they had to devote their comparably limited financial resources to resolving civil disputes that could arise from third party programs using their copyrighted material. I could maybe understand if AW's model for their products was similar to WotC's, but I've found most MW cards to be pretty useful in both casual and competitive settings, and that's key. With MTG, most of the time you buy a product, use it, and throw it away (unless you're very lucky and you open a 50$ bill). With MW, that's certainly not the case; most cards are valuable in any setting, so you don't gain much by trying to get around buying them.
I think I pretty much said the same thing in another thread, I even mentioned Cockatrice.
@Cosworth: I don't think that "thrown together" and that it's "fan made" does any justice for the game itself, no matter who did it. Infringing copyrighted material is never something you want to do, especially if done rather poorly.
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@Cosworth: I don't think that "thrown together" and that it's "fan made" does any justice for the game itself, no matter who did it. Infringing copyrighted material is never something you want to do, especially if done rather poorly.
That came off really arrogant and you missed the point.
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I do apologize if that came off arrogant, that was not my intention. What I was trying to say is that, especially for a small, growing company like Arcane Wonders, taking their commissioned art and copyrighted game without permission is wrong. No matter how you slice it. You may be giving people online play on OCTGN, but when people who have never played it before think that they can just play online, what are they going to think? First, they will think it is incredibly hard to understand. Second, they will think it's underdeveloped. And why would they want to continue? The point of online play is not only to give veteran players a chance to play, but it is also served as a gateway into the game for newer players. So, again, I do apologize, I know you and sike must have put a lot of time into it, and you all are very proud of it, but I still don't think it's right.
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I would also like to clarify that, at this stage in MW, it is often difficult to find opponents, and I understand the frustration and disappointment that goes along with that. I imagine that the intention behind the OCTGN plugin for MW is not to undermine AW, but just for personal use and enjoyment. In a vacuum, that seems reasonable and anyone advocating against that seems like just a money-grubbing jerk, or maybe a fanboy or whatever.
However, what I believe needs to be emphasized here is that there are better ways to spread the word about this game. I will say again that there is no substitute for real-life interaction. Online play is a short-term solution that causes harm to a game's long-term goals if such a game isn't terribly popular yet.
Everyone needs to realize that offering your time to do demos and teach your friends the game and so on is indeed in the best interest of the company AND the players, and is the best way to experience the game in the most positive setting. Board and card games are social events, and that is the primary context in which you should try to experience them...you don't have to be an expert in psychology to understand that internet anonymity sometimes brings out the worst in people, after all.
For example, I just did a little demo last weekend for a small group of people. I didn't really know them well, so I was kind of anxious, but I know the game and followed the teaching instructions AW put up on the site (it's in the downloads section). I was patient and everything went really well; the guys and gals I taught praised the game often while they played and after only a couple of rounds, they were already getting into the tactics of the game. Everyone had a good time and left with a proper appreciation and genuine enthusiasm for the game.
It's that kind of experience I think this game deserves right now. Yes, it is going to take some individual effort on occasion, but I think that's well worth it if you love the game, want new players to game with, and really want this game to succeed.
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I would also like to clarify that, at this stage in MW, it is often difficult to find opponents, and I understand the frustration and disappointment that goes along with that.
For example, I just did a little demo last weekend for a small group of people. I didn't really know them well, so I was kind of anxious, but I know the game and followed the teaching instructions AW put up on the site (it's in the downloads section). I was patient and everything went really well; the guys and gals I taught praised the game often while they played and after only a couple of rounds, they were already getting into the tactics of the game. Everyone had a good time and left with a proper appreciation and genuine enthusiasm for the game.
It's that kind of experience I think this game deserves right now. Yes, it is going to take some individual effort on occasion, but I think that's well worth it if you love the game, want new players to game with, and really want this game to succeed.
I agree that teaching new guys and playing face to face is best. With two kids, a full time career and very few gaming friends, I really appreciate Cosworth and Sike's work on OCTGN. I do actively teach to new guys in the physical world to widen the gene pool.
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I think if we like this game it is important to work with AW and not against them at all. They are a very young company. SO how about everyone cools off with the complain ought to do this thread.
IF you love the game then you love the game. Any change you want to make is likely BS because if it was a deal breaker you wouldn't be on here unless you just hated the game.
So. . . just talk it up, and create word of mouth. Then go play the game, and teach people how to play. Get people excited about the whole game, and help them love it.
I didnt like the game until I saw a critical review of the game play, and I almost shit myself in love.
Our goal should be to go out and recruit at least three people that actually buy the game. And encourage them to recruit one or two people. Or buy at least one person it for Christmas.
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FFG greatly benefits from having its games on OCTGN, i don't see why Arcane Wonders wouldn't
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Unless you are an employee with privileged information from FFG, I don't see how you could know if FFG benefits or not. I thought they did, too, but they don't.
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Unless you are an employee with privileged information from FFG, I don't see how you could know if FFG benefits or not. I thought they did, too, but they don't.
Such benefits are hard to quantify - it's not as simple as "all the people who play online will eventually buy the box".
That being said, I need to get both A:NR and Mage Wars to run at some point :)
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Idk, in my experience with unauthorized online play of a game, I haven't come across companies jumping for joy over it. Normally, I don't care, especially if the company is enormous and doesn't give a damn about its players, but AW seems to care and listen to suggestions (they even ask for them, which is cool), and in that context, I don't feel comfortable advocating the use of online simulators.
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My 2 cents analysis:
1: It is a tough market for this kind of game under any circumstances.
2: MW is not a casual game, which limits the player base.
3: Whether AW cares about the players or not is irrelevant from a business point of view, as long as they don’t scare away their customers.
4: Playing IRL might be better and more social (I certainly think so), but that is not an argument against online gaming in itself.
5: The player base is fickle. There are MANY good games, so if there are few or no opportunities to play a game, the players will move on to something else.
The question, I believe, is about community building from a business point of view. Community is not about having control over every individual player, but building spaces where your product will be used or promoted.
I agree that word-of-mouth is very important, but in order to get the word-of-mouth to happen, the game needs to be present in the mind of the potential ambassadors. It will not be present, if it is more than six months since you played a game (as a totally arbitrary rule of thumb).
That means that it is not important if some people play for free or if some people gets scared away because of a home-made program. The important thing question is, if MORE people gets scared away than people gaining or maintaining an interest, because every person who gains or maintains an interest in the game is both a potential customer and a potential ambassador.
I believe that the OCTGN platform is good for MW and AW, because every opportunity to play is good for players and every opportunity to promote the game is good for the company. A lot of big gaming companies are having huge problems because they are used to have total control over their product, but they are losing terrain to smaller companies that loosen the reins and let their customers be more involved in their product.
I don’t think OCTGN is for everyone and I don’t think it will guarantee AW success, but I think it slightly increases the chances of success.
Afterthought: There is a difference between the success of the game and the success of the company. The success of the game is measured in how much time people spend on the game, the success of the company is measured in income. There are probably various ways to make money on your product, but I think that in most cases the second is dependent on the first.
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I do see the ambassador program as a good step in conjunction with that person being able to find a location and time that is great. IMO what would be good to mimic is a program like MTG's "Friday night magic," and a way to track wins for league play like in mtg and Yugioh.
As for other games, this is a niche game for ppl that wanted MTG/Yugioh/Pokemon but with tactical movement and less random draw factor. And the only barrier is the learning curve that it takes, which will then fix the problems with length of games.
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Unless you are an employee with privileged information from FFG, I don't see how you could know if FFG benefits or not. I thought they did, too, but they don't.
Excuse me, how do you know that they don't? It's an honest question.
I have no private information, but I simply figured that they have enough resources to shut down OCTGN if they wanted to. Thus if OCTGN still lives it's because its continued existence gives them some sort of gain.
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Unless you are an employee with privileged information from FFG, I don't see how you could know if FFG benefits or not. I thought they did, too, but they don't.
Excuse me, how do you know that they don't? It's an honest question.
I have no private information, but I simply figured that they have enough resources to shut down OCTGN if they wanted to. Thus if OCTGN still lives it's because its continued existence gives them some sort of gain.
I think it has less to do with gains and more to do with the fact that comparatively, fewer people play online board games like Mage Wars than play games like Magic or Yugioh, so losses are probably substantially lower such that companies ignore it. Best case scenario, there's no point in pressing civil charges against an entity if there's no money in it.
In either case, it's speculation. The point is that there is a more distinctly positive ways of spreading the game than OCTGN. I don't think AW really cares or would even know if players host private games with friends on OCTGN, but I think they do care about the primary way in which MW is proliferated and thus its general image. If they didn't, they wouldn't be traveling around to various parts of the country hosting demos and other more business-related meetings. I mean, every time I visit the MW facebook page, I see Patrick Connor doing some kind of demo or business venture in different regions.
All I'm saying is that if OCTGN is going to be used, it should be a supplement to organzied, real-life promotion, not the main piece for exposure. Playing any board/card game is more engaging in the real anyway.
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AW is incredible at giving the players the opportunity to be involved with MW. More than any other OP program I have seen, AW continues to support player interaction more than computer interaction. I mean, Pat would sit and talk with someone for hours just to get them interested in the game. It is this incredible dedication that makes AW so strong as a developing company. They care about you, and they care about their product. Going off of what Reddawn said, I don't think we should be out there promoting online play for a game that just planted it's roots. The biggest part of Mage Wars is the interaction with your opponents, the doublethink, the tactical feel of the dice. You just don't get that with online play, and I think it would turn a lot of new players off. Run demos, talk about the game with people. If we love this game like we say we do, why don't we show it more?
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The biggest part of Mage Wars is the interaction with your opponents, the doublethink, the tactical feel of the dice. You just don't get that with online play, and I think it would turn a lot of new players off.
I do. The first MW game I played was on OCTGN and I loved it. I actually argue that playing online lets me concentrate on the actual game instead of getting distracted by other stuff.
There is a big fragment of potential players that don't go to the cons, don't have access to a gaming store or to opponents and I'm included in this sample. OCTGN is a powerful tool for us to play without all the inconvenience.
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I think what we are saying here is that playing on OCTGN is fine as long as you at least try to spread the game in more conventional ways. It's probably unrealistic to expect players who do not have access to regular opponents at first to not use the tools they have to play the games they like.
The problem here is that while concerned players like myself want the game to grow and would like to see players abiding by AW's recommendations on how make that happen, it's counterproductive to shun players who might not have the access to regular people to play with. No one is going to going to respond well to, "do things this way or don't play."
When you have the opportunity, just make the effort to bring the game to others. I doubt AW is going to know one way or the other whether you're playing MW on OCTGN, but if you like the game, it's in your interest to encourage people to check the game out, or offer demo experiences.
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I think what we are saying here is that playing on OCTGN is fine as long as you at least try to spread the game in more conventional ways. It's probably unrealistic to expect players who do not have access to regular opponents at first to not use the tools they have to play the games they like.
The problem here is that while concerned players like myself want the game to grow and would like to see players abiding by AW's recommendations on how make that happen, it's counterproductive to shun players who might not have the access to regular people to play with. No one is going to going to respond well to, "do things this way or don't play."
When you have the opportunity, just make the effort to bring the game to others. I doubt AW is going to know one way or the other whether you're playing MW on OCTGN, but if you like the game, it's in your interest to encourage people to check the game out, or offer demo experiences.
Man, that is exactly right.
I am trying to spread the love via teaching my friends the physical game. I am teaching new guys on OCTGN. If I hear that anyone is using OCTGN without owning the game, I suggest to them that they buy it.
But I have very very few opportunities to play face to face, so OCTGN is a blessing.
I feel like I am getting a borderline hard time for trying to get more people into this game :-\
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When you have the opportunity, just make the effort to bring the game to others. I doubt AW is going to know one way or the other whether you're playing MW on OCTGN, but if you like the game, it's in your interest to encourage people to check the game out, or offer demo experiences.
It's not exactly an easy feat when the game is not yet avalible in my native language. In a few months the situation should change though.
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When you have the opportunity, just make the effort to bring the game to others. I doubt AW is going to know one way or the other whether you're playing MW on OCTGN, but if you like the game, it's in your interest to encourage people to check the game out, or offer demo experiences.
It's not exactly an easy feat when the game is not yet avalible in my native language. In a few months the situation should change though.
That's what I'm basically saying; do what can to play and share the game. Obviously that's harder to do in your situation, so I don't think anyone would discourage you from playing or sharing the game in the ways that are currently available to you.
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Thankfully Asterion Press is gearing up for an October release.