Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Koz on August 13, 2013, 08:37:01 AM
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I hope everyone that plays in the tournament at Gen Con has a great time and I wish everyone the best of luck! I will be down Friday thru Sunday but won't be playing in the event. I had planned to, but with the Temple errata's the build that I had spent about a year working on was basically wrecked and I didn't feel like scrambling to playtest something new with only a few weeks to do it. IMO they basically screwed the Priestess the most with those errata's and gave the tournament to the Forcemasters and Warlocks (one of those will win, almost guaranteed). But I'm not bitter about it :P
Anyway, I intend to stop by the gaming area and try and meet some Mage Wars folk at the very least, so I hope to see you all there!
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I would narrow it down even further to the Warlock. He has so much versatility compared to the other mages at the moment. He has more viable builds and thus the best chance to adapt to what he needs for the current match up or game state. Although he hasn't shown much in tournament play to date, I think the Wizard has the best chance to upset the apple cart. It all depends if a dedicated control player has come up with a build that can handle the whole field not just the Warlock.
What I'm interested in now is the make up of the field and how many Warlocks will have a copy of HoB in their spellbook. Prior to the errata it wasn't economical for the Warlock to get into a HoB contest with the Priestess, now he can match her for 3 spellbook points. I suspect there will be an inordinate amount of Warlocks but only a small handful use HoB.
Hopefully AW will post some breakdowns of the field each day and who won if not the actual spellbooks. It would probably be best to post the spellbooks at the end of the event.
Anyways like Koz says, good luck to all the players.
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I'd agree that the Warlock probably has the edge over the Forcemaster due to versatility. The Forcemaster tends to be just a bit more predictable due to her restrictions and lack of a solid creature base. Control builds are a bit too slow right now and nuke builds have never been very good, so the Wizard is lacking in tournament play right now mostly due to the fact that he can't win in the allotted time reliably enough. The Warlord is...well, the Warlord :P The Priestess got hurt the worst by the errata since Temples were her strongest strategy. The Beastmaster...I just don't know what happened to this guy. I can't point to any one thing, but with the last two expansions he just really seems to have fallen below the power curve. It could just be a matter of the other mages getting cards better suited to developing their individual strategies than what he has received. I don't know what it is, but he's really fallen down the rankings for me.
So, yeah, I'm calling yet another Warlock win at Gencon, which has been handed to them on a silver platter thanks to the erratas. I hope I'm wrong because I thought this game was very well balanced, but if the Warlock wins again then it clearly isn't and they need to have a close look at what kinds of cards they are making for the other mages.
I guess we'll see. Sorry if I'm coming off as all negative, I really do love this game and the player base here seems very cool, but the errata's are still a sore spot for me. They killed my favorite build. Oh well, I still hope to say hi to some Mage Wars folks and put some faces to the names and talk about this awesome game this weekend! :)
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I disagree that there is not enough time for control builds win, with one caveat, control vs control matchups, but then both players are in the same boat. I know a lot of players have claimed to have problems finishing games in ninety minutes let alone sixty. I believe these folks were truthful and not exaggerating, I just don't believe it has to be this way. I think that given MW age the tournament scene is still evolving and that tournament spellbook building is in its infancy. I think all spellbook types will get refined over time as a true meta developes, but none more so than control builds, they are always lagging behind in the beginning. My Wizard statement revolves around the question, is this the tournament that control builds take a huge leap forward? I predict that day isn't too far off, it happened in MtG with a deck known simply as "the deck" and it should happen in MW too.
In my mind the strength of the Warlock at the moment is his completeness relative to the other mages. He just has more options that are more economical. He can do it all the best or second best. He is the best damage dealer. His in school access to vampirism makes him second only to the Priestess in healing (some might argue he is better since he can attack and heal with the same action). He starts the game with the most life and because of his exclussive access to Drain Life he beats the Priestess at her own game of life gain, how crazy is that? He is the only mage with in school access to curses which is the one advantage he is suppose to have. I would say his personal mobility is his greatest weakness, but really only the Beastmaster and Wizard do it better, and he has great in school flyers. The Warlock is definitely the best equipped to deal with a tournament field. Now ask yourself how much better will he get compared to the rest of the field when the Druid vs Necromancer comes out? Think of how many in school goodies he is going to get compared to the other mages.
I guess I forgot about the Priest. I think there could be a good aggressive Priest build out there waiting to be revealed. That could happen at Gencon.
I'm not bitter about the errata, it was actually neutral or helpful to my preferred build, but I was extremely disappointed by them since I never saw the necessity. I was actually over my disappointment until Gencon got closer. I would have really enjoyed seeing what the field consisted of prior to the errata. Well that's more than enough about the errata, it's already done, nothing to do about it now.
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We should start a book on this... (betting for those don't know British idioms)
I humbly predict Wizard to win, probably Earth Wizard. Even against control match ups.
My reasoning...
Enchantment Transfusion (no action Jinx + Nullify on enemy mage once teleported onto Spike Pit with 4 Iron Golems is too strong).
Voltaic Shield and the Gencon tie-breaker
4 Iron Golems + Pestilence + Suppression Orb (+ Deathlock or Gorgon Archer)
Wizard's Tower (Hurl Boulder) + Hawkeye Longbow + Ranged Defences
Metamagic anti-enchantments (Purge vs. stacked curses/buffs)
Enchantment Transfusion is the breakthrough control spell - hurrah!
Voltaic Shield damage prevention with Gencon tie-breaker helps time-outs
My Earth Wizard book (pretty obvious strategy) is unbeaten. In fact, the only game I lost with my Beastmaster (with Galador) was playing against my own Earth Wizard book. There is an inevitability about its victory.
Maybe I haven't worked out how to beat my build yet. The book that caused it most trouble was Warlord ranged zonal control with Bridge Trolls. But I can't see players being ballsy enough to play that... Be great if either won.
Any other guesses which mage will win Gencon?
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That earth wizard build sounds really similar to something I'm working on. We should compare notes! And yes, my secret suspicion is that its the best book in the game at the moment, if the player can play tight enough to complete all the games in time and on plan.
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I say earth wizard wins - especially one that makes great use of battle forge, wizard tower and grizzly. My earth wizard build is unbeaten as well for over 30 games now. I played via Octgn against many different players and builds so its not a question of a local groups meta game. Still, time limit and tie breaker might favor really aggressive builds. Anyway, im sure a skilled earth wizard trumps them.
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An earth wizard would be nice. Not my prediction but I'd like to see it.
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Earth wizard build in capable hands with out of school creature support gets my vote.
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On the other hand, It'd be foolish to count out David Chang especially because Warlock is so good right now and he's got so much experience with it.
Assuming, of course, that he decides to play Warlock again.
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I'd agree that the Warlock probably has the edge over the Forcemaster due to versatility. The Forcemaster tends to be just a bit more predictable due to her restrictions and lack of a solid creature base. Control builds are a bit too slow right now and nuke builds have never been very good, so the Wizard is lacking in tournament play right now mostly due to the fact that he can't win in the allotted time reliably enough. The Warlord is...well, the Warlord :P The Priestess got hurt the worst by the errata since Temples were her strongest strategy. The Beastmaster...I just don't know what happened to this guy. I can't point to any one thing, but with the last two expansions he just really seems to have fallen below the power curve. It could just be a matter of the other mages getting cards better suited to developing their individual strategies than what he has received. I don't know what it is, but he's really fallen down the rankings for me.
So, yeah, I'm calling yet another Warlock win at Gencon, which has been handed to them on a silver platter thanks to the erratas. I hope I'm wrong because I thought this game was very well balanced, but if the Warlock wins again then it clearly isn't and they need to have a close look at what kinds of cards they are making for the other mages.
I guess we'll see. Sorry if I'm coming off as all negative, I really do love this game and the player base here seems very cool, but the errata's are still a sore spot for me. They killed my favorite build. Oh well, I still hope to say hi to some Mage Wars folks and put some faces to the names and talk about this awesome game this weekend! :)
Hmm... Thinking about it, I can't think of much that the Straywood Beastmaster has gotten in the expansions compared to what the other mages got, but I still think he's a strong mage. Of course, with just the base set, I thought that he was the strongest mage (certainly for me), so even without getting much that's relevant, I still think that he's good.
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That earth wizard build sounds really similar to something I'm working on. We should compare notes! And yes, my secret suspicion is that its the best book in the game at the moment, if the player can play tight enough to complete all the games in time and on plan.
Yep, I shall post my build in the books thread soon (at work with only my Excel spell points calculator to recreate it). I'm thinking of an even more control variant with Seeking Dispel Wand and Decoy for mirror control (Transfusion Wars!), maybe Chain Lightning Wand for mirror Golem clusters. Decoy (with Enchanter's Ring, used with Arcane Ring in Tranfusion "timed denial/reversal") has that bluff element I love in other games (e.g. Netrunner). This counter-strategy leads to a "rearguard" creature 2 away from Spike Pit death trap to move enchants out-of-range of enemy's Seeking. I don't know what this rearguard creature should be as points are so tight.
The worry in going so anti-control is you lose to good old-fashion aggro (though Purge has saved me against a Vampire Bear Mongoose Lord of Fire and Curse stacking). Much like magic, I find it impossible to balance books against all strategies. There's always a chink. Hurrah for that. Every build needs an Achilles heel else the game would temporarily stagnate (until new releases fixed this) and become dull as the majority net-deck "The Book".
Hmm... Thinking about it, I can't think of much that the Straywood Beastmaster has gotten in the expansions compared to what the other mages got, but I still think he's a strong mage. Of course, with just the base set, I thought that he was the strongest mage (certainly for me), so even without getting much that's relevant, I still think that he's good.
I started only recently (in fact, you/padawan/rock all gave me great friendly advice and encouragment after my first nervous post on BGG, converting me to this hobby) and yes, my analysis of the game with 1 Core was that Straywood Beatsmaster had the best options (synergies of turn 1 Forge on FC I opened at the time followed by Ring of Beasts and Enchanter's Ring). I appreciate Dark + Fire access synergies but I never felt as comfortable as a Route 1 in-your-face Bear/Cevere slowly buffed up with Bear Strength / Vampirism / Retaliate then Battle Fury and the Roused Wolf Pet similarly buffed. As attack-triggered enchants always benefit you with persistence (over cheaper commands) and cost/damage/longevity of his creature base gave the best ROI, the lack of bursty ranged finishing is a minor weakness (4 point Circle of Lightning sufficient anti-swarm in mirror); the Straywood had it all with a 1 Core pool.
I look at how my Straywood has evolved: the only new cards are Galador, Arc Lightning (Golem/Knight-heavy local meta), Storm Drake Hide (domino effect of a Golem meta) and Eagleclaw Boots (sideboard). However, I take encouragement from the Straywood's fall from 1 Core pole position. It shows that current weaker mages (the poor nerfed Priestess, the CoK mages that were built to fight each other for board control not a solo FM, unloved Warlord who needs more zonal control) can rise while current dominant ones (Warlock has been shown disproportionate designer love) can similarly fall from grace.
Each expansion release shakes up the meta. This is good. I just hope they try to keep all mages more on par. Thankfully (as a Netrunner and Game of Thrones subscriber), expansions aren't that frequent, allowing plenty of time to experiment with the recent expansion. I have been very impressed by AW's slower playtested releases. It is a hard balance as expansions generate revenue but deter entrants who sense a "slow LCG".
I do think Straywood is still a contender as Galador is just amazing, especially with Golems so popular. I will be very happy if my old favourite mage wins Gencon. I just hope the Warlock does not win again.
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As someone already pointed out, with the next set being Druid vs Necromancer, you can expect to see a lot of Dark spells so the Warlock will get even more love. Someone on the design team definitely seems to have a love affair with that particular mage. Or maybe they just have a love affair with aggro strategies in general since those are so strong. Eh, who knows.
I'd love to see some people being right about Earth Wizard winning Gencon. That'd be great. I doubt it personally, but I'd love to see it.
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Earth Wizard really crushes you if you don't have experience with the new set. 2 Eagleclaw Boots are an auto-include in every aggro book that hopes to be competitive, honestly, and even non-aggro books as well. They just stop too many powerful effects that control builds have access to, like Slam and Push (especially the Earth Wizard). Colossus Belt and Eagleclaw boots, and maybe Force Orb, are a strong front against control books.
I just kinda want the Vorpal Blade to be available. Those little armor pieces are quite strong for their cost, and Sectarus is expensive if youre looking for an extra die and piercing +1 :-\
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As someone already pointed out, with the next set being Druid vs Necromancer, you can expect to see a lot of Dark spells so the Warlock will get even more love. Someone on the design team definitely seems to have a love affair with that particular mage. Or maybe they just have a love affair with aggro strategies in general since those are so strong. Eh, who knows.
I'd love to see some people being right about Earth Wizard winning Gencon. That'd be great. I doubt it personally, but I'd love to see it.
I was the one that pointed it out. However, I think it's just a coincidence that the Warlock should be getting a lot of love from the set. I'm guessing the primary motivation behind the set is the life vs death theme. The Warlock will just be a lucky benefactor. Having said that, I sincerely hope the other mages start getting more options after the Druid vs Necromancer set releases.
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Conquest and FvW gave very few new specific options to the Warlock, really. Sectarus and Drain Soul are about it, and they're equally useable for the Necromancer. All the other mages got lots of new in-school cards, comparatively, and they're all incredible.
This is probably in anticipation of NvD, but I don't see the the "love affair" Koz is talking about. Seems kind of odd for him to say that considering 1. he complained about the Warlock being underpowered for a while and 2. only 2 specifically Dark school cards have been released since the core set, and neither of them are particularly auto-includes, even though they're cool and good.
The Warlock really hasn't changed very much since release. Sure, there are good out-of-school cards he can now use, but the Dark school has been virtually left alone.
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Conquest and FvW gave very few new specific options to the Warlock, really. Sectarus and Drain Soul are about it, and they're equally useable for the Necromancer. All the other mages got lots of new in-school cards, comparatively, and they're all incredible.
This is probably in anticipation of NvD, but I don't see the the "love affair" Koz is talking about. Seems kind of odd for him to say that considering 1. he complained about the Warlock being underpowered for a while and 2. only 2 specifically Dark school cards have been released since the core set, and neither of them are particularly auto-includes, even though they're cool and good.
The Warlock really hasn't changed very much since release. Sure, there are good out-of-school cards he can now use, but the Dark school has been virtually left alone.
First of all, I did not "complain" about the Warlock, I started a thread to discuss whether or not he was weak in comparison to the other core mages. So, I find it a bit antagonistic of you to take my post out of context and make it appear to be more negative than it was. It was meant to be constructive and engage people in interesting dialogue, not to "complain".
Secondly, there is much more to a mage gaining power than just what is in his or her direct school(s). A card that benefits a mage's primary strategy is a gain to that mage whether or not it is of their school. Cards like Falcon's Precision, Power Strike, Eagleclaw Boots, Colossus Belt, Lion's Savagery, Gravikor, etc are all very strong cards for aggro. Even minor cards like Stormdrake's Hide, Akiro's Favor and Whirling Strike all help aggro in some of their deficient areas.
Have other mages received some good stuff too? Of course! Never said otherwise. I also never said aggro was unbeatable (nothing is). I also didn't say aggro was overpowered (it isn't). My point was that with the time restraint of a tournament and the new rule about counting damage to determine tie breaker, aggro has a natural edge in that format. That is why I said that Forcemaster or Warlock wins Gencon, because they are the two aggro heavy mages. I also agreed that since the Warlock is a bit more versatile than Forcemaster, he probably has the edge.
Outside of a timed tournament, I don't sweat aggro decks. But I don't think control decks can win reliably enough in the allotted time and the tie breaker rules favor aggro.
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I would say that the Wizard got the biggest boost of the original mages from the FvW set. That is because of his access to the earth school. The only reason Sectarus isn't auto include is because of the LoH (warlock exclusive). I would say those are the 2nd and 3rd best weapons after Galvitar.
I would say Drain Soul is an auto include. The spell is ridiculously good. It totally negates the drawback of making a demon your Bloodreaper and sticks an unhealable life loss of six on the opposing mage. The Wizard's Tower is the only spell for a non featured mage from CoK that can match its quality.
The official tie breaker system would appear ( at least to me) to favor the Warlock above all other mages. In my opinion he is the most efficient damage dealer when you factor his personal ability to deal damage (good weapons and his Battle Skill), the creatures he has in school access to, in school access to fire spells, and in school access to curses (which is, of course his bread and butter). When you add all that up, no other mage should be able to deal more total damage, which is what the tie breaker counts.
I think things have worked out pretty good for the Warlock since the core set released.
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@Koz: Some of those mentioned cards are not actually legal yet, so I can't imagine them being used at Gencon, which is a little more serious than Origins.
And maybe playtesters have had a different experience, but I have never tied a game. There have been incredibly close games, but no ties for me yet. I can't see how marginal tie-breaker condition is all that relevant.
My point was that the Dark school has been largely ignored over the past 2 releases, and I acknowledged that the Warlock has gotten new resources. But that's not a big deal, because that's the case for all mages, and in-school and thus less costly for them.
@Tacullu: Drain Soul IS incredibly good. It's also ridiculously expensive, which is a concern for very aggressive builds that would prefer Drain Life for its lower cost, and the fact that as a Warlock, your best advantage (at least on the offense) is your high life. Not saying it can't work there, because I've played it a bunch of times and I love it every time, I'm just saying that the mana cost is suitably extreme and just as much of a consideration.
The other problem is that Tainted damage isnt life loss, and CAN be healed through Finite Life. I'd argue that Drain Soul is a little less aggro in that respect, since your opponent can actually still solve it; granted, if they're alive after it is cast.
I think the Warlock is in a fine position too, but to say to speculate that the design team favors him seems pretty unfounded. All other mages have gotten tons of in-school cards that they can put in their book on the cheap, and the Warlock has been untouched. Which is fine, because as you say lots of the new cards are fine with him, but favoritism? That's far from the truth.
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I never said AW was favoring him. I made one tongue in cheek comment in another thread that I thought a warlock might be in charge at AW but I doubt that is what you're referring to. I did comment that he will probably benefit greatly from the DvN expansion, but that was a side effect of the theme of the expansion bringing a lot of Dark school spells.
Your description of tainted wounds is better than mine. I was inadequately trying to convey that the life can't be healed and that the condition must be removed which is more difficult. Some how I rambled off course. Sorry.
Edit: In regards to the tie breaker, it would be nice to see how many tournament games went to time, but so far that information hasn't been released if it was even collected. That would definitely impact just how bad the tie breaker is.
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The "favoritism" comment was more directed at Koz, who said the Warlock was the love affair of someone on the design team. That's obviously an exaggeration, but for a game that prides itself on nearly impeccable balance, that kind of remark just seemed a little disingenious to me.
Also, the Warlock is my favorite, so I'm touchy when anyone says something positive or negative about him :P.
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@reddawn I can tell you think that the tie breaker won't be a factor because games will hardly ever go to time. If this is the case I would agree with you. I was wondering if you agree that in the current environment it favors the Warlock?
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Really, competitive MW is in its early infancy, so we'll have to trust AW's judgment until there are more and regular tournaments. My understanding is that Gencon is a more serious gaming setting, so if people are gonna rules lawyer their opponents, they're probably going to do it there. If attendence is good at the AW booth (which it probably will be, since it apparently always is), we'll know if the the tie-breaker conditions are sound.
Until then, your guess is as good as mine.
Games really shouldn't go to time if you know your book very well (which you should, since the Gencon tourny newsletter says "experience necessary," so it's not a time to be practicing/testing). However, if it does happen, I don't think it would favor the Warlock, since it says the game ends after the round ends. If it said something like, "until the end of next upkeep," then I would have reason to worry since a lot of aggressive conditions like Bleed, Rot, and Burns happen during that phase.
The way it's worded now, to end at the end of the round...I don't really think that benefits any mage in particular. Seems fair enough to me.
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Fair enough. Since I asked for your opinion I'm not going to argue or try to persuade. But it's fairly obvious we see things quite a bit differently on this one. :P
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Hey, if it turns out those conditions favor the Warlock, I don't really care; I'm not going to be at Gencon to "abuse" them anyway ::)
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Personally I hope that the control builds evolve to the point time is rarely an issue and it wouldn't matter what tie breaker was used. I think this might happen but I seem to be in the minority.
Strayed way off topic so better throw this out again......good luck to all you Gencon players! I feel better now, more on topic.
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Finally back in my room Thursday night is done.
Top 3 mages were
Wizard Earth
Wiz Earth
BM Johk
Pat will be posting more info later
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Thanks for the update shadow. These results are a pleasant surprise, to me anyways.
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Thanks for the update shadow. These results are a pleasant surprise, to me anyways.
Not to me ! ;)
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Thanks for the update shadow. These results are a pleasant surprise, to me anyways.
Not to me ! ;)
Yeah, aggro players need to be very familiar with how Poison Immunity interacts with Poison control conditions like Weak and Cripple if they hope to win against the retinue of Arcane creatures, especially in combination with further Earth school conditions like Slam that can just decimate your ability to do anything relevant if you aren't well prepared. So, I'm equally unsurprised that Earth Wizards are winning; Arcane and Earth can beat the crap out of the game's basic ways of dealing damage quickly, and the solutions aren't terribly obvious.
In that context, I'm slowly realizing just how important access to Nonliving, Incorporeal, Uncontainable and Psychic Immune creatures is; those traits give you an initial resistance to control and are extremely important. They also make those seemingly crappy Holy school attack spells much more interesting for players interested in defeating opponents who are aware of the value those kinds of traits have for aggressive books, which I'm guessing people are going to finally catch onto once they realize that control is not only doable, but strong. Especially after NvD is likely to provide more control-resistant creatures, as well as probably Holy spells to deal with them.
One small complaint, as a player who likes to be aggressive; I hope they release an updated version of Malacoda in the core set soon, or maybe an alternate art in later spell tomes, because he's been Errated several times to actually be effective now. He's extremely good , because he's open to all the buffs available to Living Creatures, without their weakness to Poison conditions like Weak or Cripple, but you wouldn't know it unless you looked at the FAQ. Also, Idol of Pestilence's damage was changed to direct Poison damage too, so it has synergy with him.
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One small complaint, as a player who likes to be aggressive; I hope they release an updated version of Malacoda in the core set soon, or maybe an alternate art in later spell tomes, because he's been Errated several times to actually be effective now. He's extremely good , because he's open to all the buffs available to Living Creatures, without their weakness to Poison conditions like Weak or Cripple, but you wouldn't know it unless you looked at the FAQ. Also, Idol of Pestilence's damage was changed to direct Poison damage too, so it has synergy with him.
The changes to Malacoda and Idol of Pestilence are reflected in the latest printing of the core game. Not the spell tomes yet though. I have both versions, the fixed and the outdated one ;D
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I'm quite pleased that I predicted the #1 and #2 finishes. Makes me feel well informed :)
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I got them reversed, but I'm happier with all the wizards than I would have been to see a warlock win again (no offense to piousflea, I'm picking against a type of mage not a player).
What really makes me happy is the tie breaker system seemed to work, although without the details we can't know for certain.
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What really makes me happy is the tie breaker system seemed to work, although without the details we can't know for certain.
But did it work? Among my reasons I gave when I was first to predict an Earth Wizard win was the tie-breaker favoured Volatric Shield.
I am now of the opinion that a simple "most damage" (as advocated by someone, I think you, in my Gencon tie-breaker thread) is the best tie-breaker. It removes the extra book-keeping (sooo inelegant) and brings the Holy mages back into the meta. Damage prevention of the Voltaric Shield is too good with Gencon tie-breaker.
The winner winning several rounds on tie-breaker is testament to this.
For those worried about Healing, it is only marginally more cost-effective than burst ranged damage, which also applies conditions and can remove threats (both have ceilings where excess rolls are wasted). We all know that ranged burst damage is only used as "finisher" on threats (and mage at endgame). A 100% burst damage strategy is inefficient compared to cumulative-benefit persistent threats. The same applies to a Heal and win on tie-break strategy when faced with a properly-built aggro deck.
This would also create a triangle in Mage Wars: control > aggro > healing > control (although these are biases, not definite wins/losses).
I love the wizard but I know when rules unfairly favour one side and this tie-breaker favours Wizard too much.
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Yeah, it was me that suggested that in your thread.
I do think the Voltaric Shield is one of the best abilities in the game, but it is well balanced by its 2 mana cost and players can mitigate its affect through clever play.
I still think we need the details on the games that went to time. If all the tie breakers were Earth Wizard vs Earth Wizard or control vs control then of course Earth Wizard will have done well in them. I want to know how an aggressive Warlock performed in tie breakers , especially vs Wizards.
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i faced 2 agressive warlocks. i was playing an air wizard. only one game went to time. i won the tie breaker by a decent margin. i managed to weather the other agressor and ended up killing him outright. a warlocks worst matchup is against wizards due to the metamagic anti cards. so it generally is a close match.
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Thanks for the feedback zot. Every little bit helps. Now if only we could get a more complete outlook from AW.
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What really makes me happy is the tie breaker system seemed to work, although without the details we can't know for certain.
But did it work? Among my reasons I gave when I was first to predict an Earth Wizard win was the tie-breaker favoured Volatric Shield.
I am now of the opinion that a simple "most damage" (as advocated by someone, I think you, in my Gencon tie-breaker thread) is the best tie-breaker. It removes the extra book-keeping (sooo inelegant) and brings the Holy mages back into the meta. Damage prevention of the Voltaric Shield is too good with Gencon tie-breaker.
The winner winning several rounds on tie-breaker is testament to this.
For those worried about Healing, it is only marginally more cost-effective than burst ranged damage, which also applies conditions and can remove threats (both have ceilings where excess rolls are wasted). We all know that ranged burst damage is only used as "finisher" on threats (and mage at endgame). A 100% burst damage strategy is inefficient compared to cumulative-benefit persistent threats. The same applies to a Heal and win on tie-break strategy when faced with a properly-built aggro deck.
This would also create a triangle in Mage Wars: control > aggro > healing > control (although these are biases, not definite wins/losses).
I love the wizard but I know when rules unfairly favour one side and this tie-breaker favours Wizard too much.
Yeah, pretty much this. I've played enough OCTGN games now against super-defensive Wizard strategies that every little bit of damage counts and tbh, those games are about as fun as watching paint dry. This game is about mages fighting, and while I understand healing is important for any mage, if I spend the entire time trying to deal damage and the other player doesn't interact with me at all and just heals, and even then I still get more damage on him or her, I should win because I'm the only one actively trying to win.
Healing and damage prevention are far, far more efficient in this game than in games like MTG, and tournament rules need to compensate.
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Hey Reddawn,
I value your posts, so I have a query on this one. In every game I have played so far, I am very happy to see my opponent start to cast heals. I feel that I am gaining tempo and advantage. I don't recall losing a game after that point .
Can you give some more insight in the dragged out healing matches? How does that happen?
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I would not say that Healing incantations are the problem, but it's more the ability to cast stuff like Regrowth Belt and lots of armor bits off a Battleforge multiple times that can be problematic. That kind of play, unlike playing a more powerful healing incantation, doesn't constitute losing tempo because you're not actually spending an action, yet the only way so far to stop that is for the opposing mage to spend in action either on a Dissolve, Poisoned Blood or Deathlock. You could attempt to destroy the Forge, but that's further resources not spent against a Mage.
You combine this with the Wizard's Voltaric Shield, and it starts becoming a real issue. At that point, the Wizard is really only limited by mana, not actions, and the Wizard is the best channeler in the game so actual game time limits and rules become a real concern.
There are effective plays vs this kind of stall play, like curses and cutting healing, but the fact remains that when you start combining all of those free actions off of a Battleforge, Hand of Bim-Shalla (which should be Holy-Mage only, honestly, it would have solved the situation a long time ago) and the Wizard Tower, other mages simply cannot stand up to the sheer amount of free stuff the Wizard has access to after a while.
That's why the focus needs to be on actually dealing damage, because otherwise games lose direction. The other thing is that when you give access to all of these conjurations and things that give free actions, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how ridiculous that can get when you combine all of them. That heavily tips the late-game favor to the Wizard, who at the moment has unparalled access to free things, and abilities to ensure that, unless a time limit is properly enforced, he will get there.
So, if I were to change things, I would:
1. Make Hand of Bim-Shalla a Holy Mage Only card, because while it's not great at first, the sheer amount of free actions you get over the course of the game should be limited to mages which do not already have stuff like the Wizard Tower
2. Make it more favorable to interact with equipment and the Battleforge. Right now, a Battleforge is just way, way too safe of a play. I see no reason why there cannot be a Purge Magic equivalent for destroying equipment, especially when the Battleforge is available to all mages.
3. Emphasize damage as the way to determine a winner. This isn't Heal Wars.
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3. Emphasize damage as the way to determine a winner. This isn't Heal Wars.
Battleforge even skews this with the armor you can pile on with it. Take the Stormdrake Hide, Leather Boot, Ethereal Cloak cast off of the BF and you have taken out a large amount of damage that can be rolled. This is why when I hear things like the Ballista are over powered I scoff as the Piercing is needed as the counter, same with the Vorpal Blade, it really helps cut back on the take away armor typically gives during a game.
The obvious counter to BF is to rush, but then you get caught in the simple Force Push + Wall of Thorns counter. Their has been shown a lot of love to Wizard as of late. As for HoB both players can drop it and basically get the same free actions. What has (IMHO) imbalanced the game at the moment is the Wizards Tower. It being able to swap in and out Attack cards with no mana or action cost is like a MOAB in Arena. The good news is that the nerfing of ToL+Hob has made it a bit more realistic/possilbe to destroy the Wizards Tower without loosing your life in the process. But it has to be a focus....
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Basically, my approach is 1. make HoB Holy Mage Only 2. make equipment and Battleforge easier to interact with, and 3. re-assess Wizard's Tower. I see no reason why it deserves Channeling and FREE re-spellbinding whenever it's reserved for the mage with the easiest access to mana, especially at a mere 2 more mana than a Mana Crystal.
And yes, we absolutely need more piercing effects in the game. They're are far too few of them right now compared to the amount of armor someone can stack on their mage. It also doesn't help the problem with dealing with very high-armor conjurations.
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Thanks for the insight. I play a fairly aggressive big two / assassin / control build, but I think I will try out a defensive build with my wizard just to see what happens.
I love my wizard's tower, me, but I totally agree that it is a bit strong. The flexibility of changing spells is, for me, the key benefit. Well, that and the crazy combo strings that you can pull. ;)
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Thanks for the insight. I play a fairly aggressive big two / assassin / control build, but I think I will try out a defensive build with my wizard just to see what happens.
I love my wizard's tower, me, but I totally agree that it is a bit strong. The flexibility of changing spells is, for me, the key benefit. Well, that and the crazy combo strings that you can pull. ;)
Yeah approaching a Wizard's Tower without Eagleclaw Boots is borderline suicide. I think it's kind of unfortunate how much of a massive band-aid those boots are to the current cardpool, but they're 100% necessary and I'll take what I can get.
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Uh, the wizard doesn't have exclusive access to armor. Use some yourself. Are control mages just suppose to remain soft (armorless) easy targets for aggressive builds? There are no global effects like Day of Judgement in Mage Wars. Control players need to be able protect themselves, and I don't mean protect yourself by being more aggressive then your opponent. Then your have boring see who can roll the most and best games.
What I'm reading in this thread sounds like we want to get rid of control builds because we don't like playing against them. Remember this is the first tournament won by a wizard compared to 2 by warlocks and one by turbo priestess, and warlocks have finished second in every tournament they didn't win.
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Kind of disappointed to see a straw-man argument coming from you Tac. That's obviously not what I'm saying here, and you're just blowing it out of proportion.
I'm saying that, for ALL mages, the ability to pump out armor from a Battleforge with no profitable way to interact with it is not ok and is way too safe of a play. It's just that this is most pronounced in the case of the Wizard because he has the most access to free actions. We have cards like Destroy/Purge Magic, why can't we have cards that do the same to Equipment??
I personally have won against such Earth Wizard builds multiple times, and via tournament rules even against Charmyna recently, and yes it has everything to do with direct damage, poisoned bloods and deathlock, but for mages who do not have as easy access to direct damage as the Warlock, and with very very few piercing abilities/cards AND the inability to profitably interact with all the free actions and equipment a Battleforge can produce, it's much more of a problem.
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also, the battle forge is very susceptable to being destroyed very quickly. forcehammer can one shot it. i personally like using geyser against it. the hydro +3 makes it even more vulnerable. during the qualify rounds i lost my forge due to a one shot kill from a forcehammer. i got one cast out of it.
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I've had several Forcemaster use Force Hammer on my Forge and not once did it ever die with just that spell. The armor and hp value on it is such that 8 dice is really no big deal, much less a 6 dice attack, and is totally punishing if you don't kill it with the first spell.
I think that actually destroying the Battleforge is less of a problem than not being able to efficiently deal with the equipment, though. Hopefully we will see equipment equivalents of Puge Magic in NvD. Maybe that's what Armor Ward is for..
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@Tacullu64
The response was really about the current tie breaker system and how BF + Armor effect that out come. Of course everyone can armor up. Why not everyone drop a BF in the corner sit there and suit up...
@zot
Thanks for the ideas on dealing with BF, I like to carry Surging Wave in my books and the dice results are the same as Geyser.
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for tourney play, sitting in corner with the forge was the play against the agressive players. it helped to mitigate early damage. of course the forge will generally take two hits or more to go down. sometimes three or four. just that if you go after it and can take it out, you can disrupt the turtle build up who may be very dependent on that strategy. they would then need future actions to get that precious equipment into play instead of whatever they would have done otherwise. why dissolve armor if you can help prevent the deployment in advance?
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@reddawn. Forgive me if I overreacted, but the tone of this conversation was making me very nervous. It reminded me of some of the threads about HoB and ToL after turbo priestess won her first tournament. I don't think any of us were entirely satisfied with how that turned out, not even those advocating nerfing the cards. I would hate to see a "Wizard" hunt followed by more errata.
@sIKE. This is going to sound like the pot calling the kettle black because I was shamelessly speculating about the tie breaker favoring the Warlock,( although in my defense, I did on at least two occasions suggest the current tie breaker be given more time). We only have 2 points of data on tie breaker results. We should have at least 100 to 300 tie breakers under our belt before we can make a reasoned decision on the subject. Arcane Wonders has more data but who nknows how much. All we have is what zot gave us.
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No problem, Tac. No one is trying to take away the Wizard's win here (at least, I'm not). The Wizard players, and the players on this forum in general are top notch. I've personally learned a lot from my playing on OCTGN, and I'm in no way saying the wins are undeserved, or that the Wizard deserves some kind of punishment for that.
What I AM saying is that I would like to see a few things:
1. More ways to deal specifically with conjurations and equips, regardless of mage
2. HoB made Holy Mage only, because in terms of theme and balance, it just doesn't make much sense otherwise
3. Re-assessing the Wizard's Tower after the cardpool expands from the NvD release
I imagine 1 & 3 will be solved with NvD, and perhaps 2 as well if there is significant anti-conjuration tech. My main problem is that equipment in general is very difficult to profitably attack right now, but I have confidence that will change in NvD, if the art on Armor Ward is any indication of that.
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What I'm reading in this thread sounds like we want to get rid of control builds because we don't like playing against them. Remember this is the first tournament won by a wizard compared to 2 by warlocks and one by turbo priestess, and warlocks have finished second in every tournament they didn't win.
Not sure where that is from but I certainly want to keep control builds (and many others) viable options. I love the variety of books that I come up against.
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A few thoughts on some things being discussed.
1. Tie breaker. I still believe that the tie breaker favors aggro, specifically Forcemaster/Warlock. I was talking to the guy that won the tournament at Gencon and we were discussing strategies and whatnot. He also feels that the tie breaker favors aggro, it's just that he was able to win most (all?) of his games within the time limit and therefore the tie breaker didn't come into play. If your Voltaric Shield and Regrowth Belt are able to keep you in the game long enough to win within the time limit, it doesn't matter if your opponent did more overall damage or not, because they died first. So, it would seem that the tie breaker isn't really an issue if you build your book to win in the allotted time, which is how it should be.
2. HoB/ToL Errata. I was watching a lot of the tournament games over the weekend, including the final 8 players on Sunday. Do you know how many HoB/ToL I saw being played in any of the games I watched? Zero. Now that might just be an issue of the card being errata'd so recently that people are just staying away until they can digest and test the changes. However, I've played in many, many CCG's and lived through many, many errata's, and in my experience when you see cards go from "played too much" to "not played at all" then it's because the errata's went too far. We'll have to wait and see to be sure I guess. I also didn't see any Battle Fury's played either, but that would be more easy to miss if I wasn't watching for that particular play, but the Temples would have stayed on the table, so it was obvious they just weren't being played.
3. Earth Wizard "Control Builds". I keep seeing the Earth Wizards labeled as "control", but I'm not sure that's accurate. Again, I watched several of these games and I'm not seeing the "control" aspect of the builds. To me, Daze/Stun lock builds are control. Mana drain is control. Enfeeble/Cripple/Weak builds are control. But casting Hurl Boulders, Iron Golems, Force Pushes into Wall of Thorns and Wizard Towers don't seem like control builds to me, they seem more like "these are all awesome spells" builds to me. We really need to work on those definitions of builds...
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@koz. I wasn't at Gencon and there haven't been many spellbooks spoiled yet so I can't speak to these specific builds, but you may be a little narrow in your definition of control builds. I am currently working on two articles discussing the general nature of control builds so I'll expand on my statement there. I would throw out for discussion the thought that Earth Wizard kill box might be MW version of a combo build.
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Well, like I said, we need to really get those definitions of builds down. I guess we have to put the build into SOME sort of category, and it certainly doesn't fit into aggro or swarm. Combo doesn't really fit either. I don't know, but it seems like we're just making control a catch-all category for what doesn't fit in the other, more clearly defined, descriptors. But maybe that's what we have to do.
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I would agree that Griz-Wiz build is a combo build. There is a lot of board control that goes on with the Wizard tower, along with a small mid-level creature swarm(agro). Other than attack spells (that are actually cast by the mage and not the tower) and the occasional Zap the Earth Wizard himself does not apply a lot of the damage on the opposing mage. The agro is mid-game and the control is early game.
I have found it my challenging and satisfying playing the games against this type of build. Many times I have been dismayed to find how badly I loose. But in all it has made me a much better player.