Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Creative => Topic started by: lukard on February 26, 2014, 10:07:11 PM
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I find the spellbook (the binder) very nice and gives a cool theme to the game. However, I think that it takes much longer to put all cards back in the spellbook than simply making a regular deck and store it in a box.
Additionally, I also find quicker to find my cards from the deck than from the spellbook. Spellbooks also take more storage space (not a big concern though).
Therefore, I am playing with my friends without any spellbook. One of my friends is also following the trend.
What do you guys think about it? The spellbook does not add much for me.
By the way, does anybody know if I can make just a regular deck in tournaments?
Thanks
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Im way too used to decks.. Ive never been into the actual spellbinders.
I find it easier to find cards I'm looking for by just sifting through them in a stack than flipping through pages. plus I pick and pull a few times during planning, so its easier to put them back into the stack than to replace them in the book.
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I personally love playing with the spellbooks. I agree it takes longer to take the cards out and put them back in, but this isn't such a big deal to me. It doesn't really bother me.
On the other hand, the reason I love them is just because they are so thematic. They really help me get engrossed in the game and help me feel like a real mage :P
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I'm with Lord of Winter on this one. I like having an actual spell book in my hand. But I can see where some folks, especially former MtG players would be more comfortable with a deck.
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts, it is good to know the experience of other players.
I must say that opting by using the spellbinder or playing with a deck is just a personal preference. However, I truly believe that it is not necessary to include two spellbinders in the next expansions (following the trend of DvN, FvW). I would rather having more copies of cards, more tokens, or simply a price reduction.
Most of my friends and I have the expansions and we keep storing empty spellbinders. In my case, I have the core set and all expansions (including tomes), but I cannot have more than tree mages ready to go, otherwise I run out of cards. It turns out that I keep half of the spellbinders empty.
I really understand the reason for including the spellbinders in the expansions (thematic and business reasons). But it bugs me when I have these unnecessary spellbinders. It just gives the impression that it is a waist.
Does anybody agree/disagree?
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After trying the spellbooks a few times, I ditched them and started playing with decks in boxes instead. I have never been tempted to try the spellbooks out again; they just take way too much time.
I really understand the reason for including the spellbinders in the expansions (thematic and business reasons). But it bugs me when I have these unnecessary spellbinders. It just gives the impression that it is a waist.
Does anybody agree/disagree?
I absolutely, 100% agree. Expansions should never have additional spellbooks; it is a waste of space and just adds the the price of the expansion. Particularly as more expansions come out, the price to new players will become much higher than it would if AW would just sell the new spellbooks separately for anybody who wants them. This would benefit everybody:
- People who aren't interested in the spellbooks wouldn't want to buy them, and might be willing to purchase multiples of the expansions.
- AW's production costs would be lower
- People who want new spellbooks could still get them.
If spellbooks are removed from expansions, this leaves more space for cards, or for reduction of cost.
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Not everyone comes from a MTG background or any other CCG/LCG variant. I happen to love my spellbooks, and they are an integral part of the game for me. I have never gotten (random draws determine fate) into the above games for the exact reason you guys love them (decks). So I do not necessarily agree with the removal of the spellbooks from the expansions.
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Not everyone comes from a MTG background or any other CCG/LCG variant. I happen to love my spellbooks, and they are an integral part of the game for me. I have never gotten (random draws determine fate) into the above games for the exact reason you guys love them (decks). So I do not necessarily agree with the removal of the spellbooks from the expansions.
My preference to use decks above spellbooks does not stem from a CCG background; I actually dislike CCGs a lot. I prefer to use them because they are more convenient.
But the issue I have with including spellbooks in the expansions is not that I don't think people should have the option of using spellbooks, but rather that including them in the expansions is unnecessary (the core set already contains spellbooks) and wasteful. Simply put, we do not need new spellbooks in every single expansion; it makes more sense to sell them as accessories for those who want them. Including them in the expansions derives the price up and/or the potential number of cards down.
I understand that you might want to have multiple mages built at the same time, but that need can still be met with accessory spellbooks.
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I actually agree with ACG and lukard here. I love my spellbooks. They add so much thematically. But they don't need to be added with (almost) every expansion.
The idea of taking them out of the expansions and just making them available as spellbook packs is probably the best thing to do. I already have more spellbooks than mages I can make at once. There simply aren't enough of the most important cards to have multiple decent books at the same time.
As already mentioned, the benefits of doing this, in my opinion, outweigh the negatives in almost every regard. Less production cost for AW, less shipping cost, etc. This all translates to more profit for them, and should allow them to lower the prices of the expansions somewhat. Or this could also allow them to add more cards into each expansion.
I don't think there are really any drawbacks to doing this either. The spellbooks will still be available to people who want them, they would just be sold separately.
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I'min favor of new expansions having spell books in them. Otherwise you can either go buy more books seperately which is about $15 or keep swapping your cards out of the ones you got which is annoying. But then I'm just a fan of spell books in general.
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As already mentioned, the benefits of doing this, in my opinion, outweigh the negatives in almost every regard. Less production cost for AW, less shipping cost, etc. This all translates to more profit for them, and should allow them to lower the prices of the expansions somewhat. Or this could also allow them to add more cards into each expansion.
- AW's production costs would be lower
You guys have no way of knowing if that is true or not. I would argue the opposite. AW is still a pretty small company who is self-publishing their games, they do not have the clout of Fantasy Flight Games to negotiate for lower printing/boxing/manufacturing/stocking/shipping prices on their products. I think it is very likely that AW would lose money on every spellbook set sold.
Also I use the spellbooks very frequently. I find it awkward to paw through a stack of cards every 5 minutes.
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I'min favor of new expansions having spell books in them. Otherwise you can either go buy more books seperately which is about $15 or keep swapping your cards out of the ones you got which is annoying. But then I'm just a fan of spell books in general.
I really don't see why it should be necessary to do that. If you don't have enough binders, keep the rest of your builds in deck form.
Thematically I HATE using the binders during a match. They don't make me feel like a real mage, they make me feel like an apprentice who can't remember even the most basic of their own spells.
When narrating a serious life and death duel between fully trained mages, there is absolutely NO effective way to suspend the readers' disbelief about this.
I mean, how would anyone take it seriously if someone wrote something like this:
The fog had cleared, allowing the Forest Shadow to see that he was only a few inches away from his prey, the nearly dead enemy Forcemaster.
As her impending demise neared, the forcemaster frantically flipped through the pages of her spellbook, desperately trying to find a way to stop the legendary panther from gouging her heart out with its terrifying claws.
"Aha!" she weakly whispered in triumph. She had found just the spell she needed. She quickly enchanted herself with a basic defensive enchantment, Block, just before the cat took a swipe at her.
Any intelligent person who read that would wonder why the cat didn't just attack her while she was reading her spellbook.
It's a shame that Arcane Wonders has made the spellbooks so integral to marketing the game. I think as soon as they have enough money to do so, they should just abandon the whole "reading while fighting for your life" thing, since that's just stupid.
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Thematically I HATE digging though a pile of cards while trying to plan a strategy and don't even start me on card counts. Bile just rose up in the back of my throat.
It is not called a spell deck, but a Spellbook, Thematically the game revolves around this. A deck is shuffled and random things happen, bile just rose up in the back of my throat again. A spellbook is order and planning.
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I prefer the spellbooks myself. They are beautifully designed and really help to immerse me in the game. They make finding the spell I want a breeze. They do suffer a bit on clean up, but during the game they are amazing. I also don't find that they negatively impact the games portability at all. The main culprit there is the board.
I am also extremely glad that the expansions come with spellbooks. That is because I enjoy them however. I can see merit in marketing things separately. If they did this, it would most likely increase the cost we would have to pay if we want to get everything, but would probably decrease the cost for those who are satisfied with not having them. I do not know how this would affect Arcane Wonders profits.
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The minor expansions like CoK and FiF do not come with spellbooks,and the major ones like DvN and FvW do...so in reality the glass is half full for both sides of this conversation....
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I actually just got my Warlock/Wizard spell books in today. They look totally sweet and give me hope that the Warlock will one day have a dragon so he can set elves on fire.
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Hi everybody,
Thank you very much for your input, I am very happy to see players participating in such discussions.
Reading your posts I can see two main points that I would like to explore: Spellbinder vs Spelldeck; Should Spellbinders be Included in the Expansions?
Spellbinder vs Spelldeck: This is quite a simple topic IMO. Some players prefer spellbinders, other players prefer Spelldecks. It is a personal choice that does not impact gameplay and players a free to choose whatever they feel more comfortable with.
Should Spellbinders be Included in the Expansions? This is a hot topic that can foment a long discussion. IMO, it is a business decision driven by profit. A comprehensive business analysis could get very complex and we do not have enough data to make such analysis. However, we can see interesting results if we list and explore a few key-points:
=== Reasons to exclude spellbinder in the expansions ===
E1: Players may end up with more spellbinders than necessary: As Lord0fWinter pointed out, some players (including myself) have more spellbinders than mages that can be made at once. Pilling empty spellbinders also may generate a negative psychological effect.
E2: Excluding spellbinders may reduce cost, hence attract more players: As lettucemode pointed out, there is no way for us to know it for sure. However, there is one thing I want to say, most of my friends prefer A Game Of Thrones LCG than Mage Wars because GoT's expansions/packs are cheaper. Players ponder if they should start a new game based on the long term cost. If excluding spellbinders can reduce costs, then; excluding spellbinders is an option that should be carefully considered.
E3: Players who want more spellbinders can purchase it separately: Lord0fWinder, Imaginator, and ACG have good points about it. It is clear that purchasing it separately would be more expansive; but, it would be more beneficial for the other players. In other words, we need to know the ratio of players who fall into E1 to evaluate this key-point.
=== Reasons to include spellbinder in the expansions ===
I1: Players do not want to purchase spellbinders separately due to costs: This is related to E3. Again, we need to know the ratio of players who fall into E1 to evaluate this key point.
I2: It justifies the expansion cost: This may be one of the most important reasons to include spellbinders. We all know that costumers have the impression their money is well spent if they get a big box with nice components. This key-point is related to E1 and E2.
It would be very good if we could know the ratio of players who fall into E1. How about if we open a new topic an ask players their opinion about it?
Thanks,
Lukard
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The minor expansions like CoK and FiF do not come with spellbooks,and the major ones like DvN and FvW do...so in reality the glass is half full for both sides of this conversation....
Hey sIKE, what do you mean with FiF?
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Forged in Fire, the upcoming release.
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It would be very good if we could know the ratio of players who fall into E1. How about if we open a new topic an ask players their opinion about it?
An excellent suggestion. Can we do polls on this site?
Also, if we do this we should also set up a poll on BGG, so that we can find out what the average player thinks (since I assume that many players do not visit this site). We need to word the question in such a way that it does not bias the responses. What about:
"Which distribution model would you prefer for mage wars expansions?
1. The current model, with spellbook binders packaged with each major expansion set.
2. Sell spellbook binders separately from expansions and reduce the price and/or increase the number of cards in each expansion.
3. No preference."
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It would be very good if we could know the ratio of players who fall into E1. How about if we open a new topic an ask players their opinion about it?
An excellent suggestion. Can we do polls on this site?
Also, if we do this we should also set up a poll on BGG, so that we can find out what the average player thinks (since I assume that many players do not visit this site). We need to word the question in such a way that it does not bias the responses. What about:
"Which distribution model would you prefer for mage wars expansions?
1. The current model, with spellbook binders packaged with each major expansion set.
2. Sell spellbook binders separately from expansions and reduce the price and/or increase the number of cards in each expansion.
3. No preference."
Done. On BGG at least. Hopefully enough people answer it to get a decent idea of what the general population thinks.
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Thematically I HATE digging though a pile of cards while trying to plan a strategy and don't even start me on card counts. Bile just rose up in the back of my throat.
It is not called a spell deck, but a Spellbook, Thematically the game revolves around this. A deck is shuffled and random things happen, bile just rose up in the back of my throat again. A spellbook is order and planning.
My problem is not with the existence of spellbooks in general, just the idea of using them during a match. Just because it's in a deck form doesn't mean it has to function like a traditional deck. You don't have to shuffle it or even call it a deck. Furthermore, if you keep your build organized by type, and maybe loosely organized by level, I really don't see why it should be be that hard to find the spells you need during the planning phase.
Using spellbook binders during a match is valuable to the theme, but only in apprentice mode.
There is no thematic justification for why fully trained mages should stop to read a book while fighting for their lives, unless the book itself is an equipment spell that has it's own abilities, but it has to be something that makes it worth stopping to read. If a mage has other objects capable of holding off enemy attacks while they're reading that's fine. The wizard could do that. The Necromancer could do that. The Druid could do that. So could the priestess. The Beastmaster could do that but usually won't want to.
However, a competent priest of Malakai won't, and neither the forcemaster nor the warlock would be caught dead reading in the middle of a fight.
When the book automatically casts its own spells even better, since that way the mage doesn't have to READ them in the middle if a fight.
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To be fair, the small AGOT expansions have 60 cards (20 cards 3x each) and are $15, which CoK has 106 cards plus 2 mages and some new markers for $30.
The larger expansions for AGOT have usually around 150-160 cards for around $30, while the large expansions for Mage Wars have 216 cards plus new mages and markers PLUS 2 spellbooks for $40.
Comparing the two, you actually get more for your money with Mage Wars, IMO.
Note- These prices are all based on USA pricing, not international.
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Done. On BGG at least. Hopefully enough people answer it to get a decent idea of what the general population thinks.
Poll found here (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1130879/poll-about-spellbooks) for the convenience of all:
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Thematically I HATE digging though a pile of cards while trying to plan a strategy and don't even start me on card counts. Bile just rose up in the back of my throat.
It is not called a spell deck, but a Spellbook, Thematically the game revolves around this. A deck is shuffled and random things happen, bile just rose up in the back of my throat again. A spellbook is order and planning.
My problem is not with the existence of spellbooks in general, just the idea of using them during a match. Just because it's in a deck form doesn't mean it has to function like a traditional deck. You don't have to shuffle it or even call it a deck. Furthermore, if you keep your build organized by type, and maybe loosely organized by level, I really don't see why it should be be that hard to find the spells you need during the planning phase.
Using spellbook binders during a match is valuable to the theme, but only in apprentice mode.
There is no thematic justification for why fully trained mages should stop to read a book while fighting for their lives, unless the book itself is an equipment spell that has it's own abilities, but it has to be something that makes it worth stopping to read. If a mage has other objects capable of holding off enemy attacks while they're reading that's fine. The wizard could do that. The Necromancer could do that. The Druid could do that. So could the priestess. The Beastmaster could do that but usually won't want to.
However, a competent priest of Malakai won't, and neither the forcemaster nor the warlock would be caught dead reading in the middle of a fight.
When the book automatically casts its own spells even better, since that way the mage doesn't have to READ them in the middle if a fight.
Same can be said about either of these mages flipping through a pile of cards, Priest in his NC: Crap! I know I have a Wall of Holy Light (a man can dream right) here some where, flick, flick, flick, flick, flick, flick, flick, ah! no! dang it! flick, flick, flick, flick, flick, flick, flick, flick, flick ....<five minutes pass>... ahh there it is! Mean while, page 4 is where me conjurations start, loaded in alpha order, I find my Wall to Eternal Damnation (a man can dream right?) in 3.2 to seconds, I roll my eyes for the next 5 + minutes. :)
Arguing theme of how in IRL person picks a card that represents a spell to cast in the arena and then applying that same mechanism to the mage in the arena is not in any way tied to each other thematically.
Just like Wrestlers who while off screen choreograph their moves, steps, counts, and reactions out of the ring, once in the ring all of that falls away and you see the magic. For MW to book building process done IRL is a mechanic for us, not the mage. When he enters the arena all you see is the magic. (IMHO)
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To be fair, the small AGOT expansions have 60 cards (20 cards 3x each) and are $15, which CoK has 106 cards plus 2 mages and some new markers for $30.
The larger expansions for AGOT have usually around 150-160 cards for around $30, while the large expansions for Mage Wars have 216 cards plus new mages and markers PLUS 2 spellbooks for $40.
Comparing the two, you actually get more for your money with Mage Wars, IMO.
Note- These prices are all based on USA pricing, not international.
Thank you very much for bringing this up. I agree with you. Also, AGOT has more packs and expansions than MW; therefore, currently it is more expensive in the long run.
Nevertheless, I have presented similar comparison to some friends and they still prefer AGOT. AGOT has more packs costing $12-$16 and I notice that it has somehow influenced their preference.
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Thank you very much for bringing this up. I agree with you. Also, AGOT has more packs and expansions than MW; therefore, currently it is more expensive in the long run.
Nevertheless, I have presented similar comparison to some friends and they still prefer AGOT. AGOT has more packs costing $12-$16 and I notice that it has somehow influenced their preference.
I know what you mean. Since the expansions are lower cost, it is natural to assume they are a better deal, and therefore make them more likely to be bought. However this isn't the case. Same can be said with Netrunner and other LCGs that release expansions every month or every other month. I much prefer AW's release schedule.
For the cost (considering what you get), MW and its expansions are one of, if not the best, deals out there. Especially considering it is such a great game with infinite replayability.
I got tired of having to buy expansions for AGOT every month which is why I stopped playing. It was just too much money to buy everything out there. It's too bad not everybody sees it this way.
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Hi sPIKE & Imaginator
My honest opinion is that it's just a personal preference. I (and another friend) honest noticed a gain in speed when using the spelldeck (or spell-repertoire for a different name ;D ); but the spellbinder is awesome, cool, and pretty. I still using the spellbinder when I have spare time to set it up.
However, I noticed that some players take their time to scan their spellbinder back and forth, because it helps them to thinking about their options. If they want to do the same thing with a spelldeck; then, it will take longer; therefore, it may influence their preference between spellbinder vs spelldeck. I am different, I do it in my head and seek the desired cards when I know what I want.
Moreover, the spellbinder is just an accessory. As in many other products it can be sold with the main product or separately.
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Hi sPIKE & Imaginator
My honest opinion is that it's just a personal preference. I (and another friend) honest noticed a gain in speed when using the spelldeck (or spell-repertoire for a different name ;D ); but the spellbinder is awesome, cool, and pretty. I still using the spellbinder when I have spare time to set it up.
However, I noticed that some players take their time to scan their spellbinder back and forth, because it helps them to thinking about their options. If they want to do the same thing with a spelldeck; then, it will take longer; therefore, it may influence their preference between spellbinder vs spelldeck. I am different, I do it in my head and seek the desired cards when I know what I want.
Moreover, the spellbinder is just an accessory. As in many other products it can be sold with the main product or separately.
I am not arguing that one is faster than the other to setup. Obviously taking a card out and putting it into a pile is much faster than placing it into a slot in a spellbook, especially if you do it in order. OTOH the preparation of a spellbook, leads to faster game play, no need to search for a card. Then at the end, clean up is much faster with a deck, it is a pile after all, no need to organize it. But all of these points were not the point of the OP. I (do/do not) like playing with the spellbook.....
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I like the spellbooks. They look good, they're thematic and set the game apart from LCG games, and they feel like a bonus when you open the box (even though rationally speaking they probably aren't). And I like using them too.