Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: Aquila on January 31, 2013, 07:27:40 AM

Title: Pentagram
Post by: Aquila on January 31, 2013, 07:27:40 AM
Pentagram says: "Each time a different enemy creature is attacked and damaged by a friendly creature, place 1 mana on pentagram.
Is my mage considered a friendly creature?? Cause if not, how do i get the damn thing running, when my mage (who by the way is the aggressiv Warlock...) could not get mana on this thing...? 1 channeling is worst of all spawnpoints in the game..!
And by the way, what's with Group Heal: "Each friendly living creature..." Can my poor Priestess not heal herself with this spell?
Pleas help me with some clarification!
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Sausageman on January 31, 2013, 07:51:10 AM
Yes, your mage is considered a friendly creature.  For the record, he's also living, corporeal, and level 6, unless it states otherwise.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Koy on January 31, 2013, 10:57:16 AM
Well the good news for you, as Sausageman said, is your mage is a creature - though how "friendly" it is, is up to you of course.  The bad news, in my opinion only, is that Pentagram is very weak sauce.  I don't even consider it any more when building Warlock books.

I do sob uncontrollably every time I have to save up for Andramalech out of my own mana pool, though.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: residualshade on January 31, 2013, 12:46:23 PM
Pentagram is fine. it is the warlocks poor creature selection that is the issue here.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Aquila on January 31, 2013, 03:49:33 PM
But is that so?
Are his creatures weaker than those of the other mages?
I mean except those of the Priestess, she got real nasty stuff to summon... :)
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: residualshade on January 31, 2013, 03:54:39 PM
both the warlock and the wizard have terrible creature options. i would take anything the beastmaster or priestess has in a heartbeat. the only thing warlock side i would even consider is the hellion, and on the wizard side the mana leech.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: theduke850 on January 31, 2013, 04:21:06 PM
I would put the Necropian Vampiress in any Warlock build, I've been known to make room for her in a Wizard build a time or two also.

but as far as Pentagram goes, I don't really use it much.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: krj on January 31, 2013, 07:09:54 PM
i use Pentagram every time and it works well, and usually have greater chance to survive than Priestess temple.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Koy on January 31, 2013, 08:19:26 PM
Quote from: "residualshade" post=6961
both the warlock and the wizard have terrible creature options. i would take anything the beastmaster or priestess has in a heartbeat. the only thing warlock side i would even consider is the hellion, and on the wizard side the mana leech.


What?!  The arcane creatures are the best!  I'm not crazy about the dark creatures, other than the Lord of Fire and the rot bats, but the Arcane stable is crazy powerful.  The board control you can get with some basilisks and gorgons out is simply game winning.  And when it comes time to kill something, a square with a hydra or two... something is dead in that square.

I suppose if had to rank them, it would be:

1)  Arcane
2)  Holy
3)  Warlock (I guess?)
4)  Beastmaster (just so dull.  And weak.)

All my opinion, of course.  

As for the Pentagram, I dont want my creatures having to shotgun their targets to drum up some more spawnpoint mana.  The Temple, Gate, and Lair are all very solid.  The Battleforge is pretty neat in some decks, usually my warlock's.  The Pentagram just doesn't cut it for me.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Sausageman on February 01, 2013, 06:48:10 AM
It's interesting that we refer to them as 'their creatures', when the major plus point that Mage Wars has (or one of them) is that any mage can use any spell....

As for the power of the Pentagram being fine, compare it to the Gate to Voltari, or the Lair.  These two bad mofos are awesome by comparison...  Pentagram would have been great had they not capped the limit it could get per turn though...
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Aquila on February 01, 2013, 07:40:35 AM
That's absolutely right!
A Beastmaster with some unicorns (which are "animals", and therefore can be summoned from his lair) is quite cool :)
And by the way, a Timberwolf is not that dull! it's not to expensive and with some cool stuff from Falella a dreadfull creature! Also the Grizzly and the Alpha!
But to stay on the topic, pentagram sucks... Sorry!
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Koz on February 01, 2013, 09:32:20 AM
Quote from: "residualshade" post=6961
both the warlock and the wizard have terrible creature options. i would take anything the beastmaster or priestess has in a heartbeat. the only thing warlock side i would even consider is the hellion, and on the wizard side the mana leech.


 :ohmy:

That's...the one of the craziest opinions I've ever heard of in this game.  Lol, no offense.  The Arcane creatures are fantastic.  The Hydra, Gorgon Archer and the Stonegaze Basilisk are all AMAZING.  The Mana Leech is also pretty good and the Familiar is awesome if you can keep it alive.  I'll give you that the Blue Gremlin and the Moonglow Fairy are just ok and there are better options though.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Koz on February 01, 2013, 09:38:36 AM
As for the Pentagram, IMO, it's the worst one.  All of the other spawnpoints are better.  The fact that it's incorporeal doesn't make up for the fact that it's the worst spawnpoint in regards to efficiency.  

The Warlock creatures are fine though.  They are all pretty solid and I don't have any complaints about any of them.

Honestly, at this point I'm not really using spawnpoints.  I think they are slow and too expensive.  I think they have their place in certain builds and I'm sure cards will come out that will make them better, but they are certainly not an auto include for me at all.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Koy on February 01, 2013, 01:15:04 PM
I've tried duels with and without spawnpoints four all four mages, and I have come to find that:

1)  In a typical turtling temple build, the Temple of Asyra is very good.  That book will last so long that you will easily get your mana/actions back from it.  It is a considerable commitment though when you count up the initial mana cost, the cost of the two clerics (and their actions), and a possible Harmonize.  Hmm, maybe I dont like it as much as I thought...

2)  Likewise, for my favorite wizard book the Gate is very useful as I'm mostly teleporting around and blowing things up with various lightning effects while the gate steadily gains 3-4 mana a round if I get a Harmonize up on it, which lets me nuke while the big beasts of death get some bonus mana.  I think this is a must have for my play style.  It's really efficient too.

3)  The Lair... it's fun to use it for 2-3 creatures a round, but the swarm deck is not my favorite.  I guess it isn't the lair's fault, but ... bleh.  

4)  The Pentagram, as mentioned above, is just terrible.  I use the Battle Forge with the Warlock, but I can't imagine a time I'd ever put the Pentagram in my book.  Much like the Gate, the Forge allows my warlock to go get busy with the Lash while gearing me up for "free" in terms of my actions.

@Koz:  Thanks for the confirmation on my Arcane creature opinion.  I love them and just feel bad for the other schools when I start spamming control effects at range in every game.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: ggburat on February 01, 2013, 07:12:43 PM
I'll put Pentagram on my side deck now and then put as a counter against Swarm Spawn Type Beastmaster, and i think it gives me a good chance of winning! I swarm Fire Brand Imp put a blood reaper on it and then wrest havoc against his smaller creature, my swarm and me can accumulate 2 mana per round which is like +3cha p/r which i think it pays as a compensation from my wasted round without 2 mana accumulated.

Yesterday I won against a SST Beastmaster! One of the key factor is the Pentagram Card, I won without  enchantment and only a Demonhide Armor Equipped, I almost lost that match.. was Tanglevined and has 16/20hp cause i wasted a turn without summoning my 2nd Mana Crystal and his buffed creature owning me, i only had 10ch and he got 13ch but thanks to Pentagram I able to  swarm level 1 Dark Creature and they accumulated enough mana to summon Death Pact Slayer and eventually Flaming Hellion! They own their level 1 Animal Creature and the beastmaster who's trying to kill me, also thanks to Blood Reaper that heals my HP! One of the best Comeback for me as a moment!  :silly:  

By the way.. You can't put a monster face down in your spawnpoint if the Pentagram only has 1 mana? Cause it said that you need 2 mana to summon a Dark monster..
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: krj on February 02, 2013, 05:45:13 AM
i like Pentagram. it promotes offensive tactics, because of additional channeling for attacking enemy creatures. just fire firestorm into zone with at least 2 creatures and you get 2 extra mana for P. lovely :)
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: baronzaltor on February 04, 2013, 09:51:40 PM
The problem with Pentagram for me is that its method of mana generation is counter intuitive to what a spawn point is for.

Spawnpoints are for getting creatures on the table.
Pentagram requires you to already have creatures actively engaged in the fray to make it worth using.

You need creatures attacking to fuel it... if you have creatures already attacking and in the fray, then the spawnpoint really wasn't that vital to get your creatures flowing as they are already out mixing it up.  Youre better of using your actions and mana to support your attackers and apply more pressure than to drop the cost of a Pentagram and wait for it to spit out a creature (and wait for that creatures summoning sickness to wear off).  Sure the Warlock can get in the fight and fuel it himself, but now in a build that aggressive there was probably a better way to spend that 14 mana, and that action.  

Thats just me. The only build I can really see a Pentagram being useful in is an attempt at a Warlock swarm, but neither his creatures nor his spells really support a strong swarm.  His best creatures are a handful of hard hitters like a Dark Pact Slayer, A Vampiress or Goran riding alongside him while he either beatdowns or fireballs and life drains the opponent down.  For me the only successful ways to play Warlock have to be much more fast paced than a Pentagram works in.

Pentagram could also function decently in a build made specifically for mass melee 4 player games where the pace is slower and theres lots of attacking to be had.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Tacullu64 on February 04, 2013, 10:28:27 PM
I wonder, would the damage barrier from the demonhide armor power the pentagram?
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Kytan on February 05, 2013, 12:05:56 AM
I don't like pentagram either, it's not terribly effient like other people have said, and the fact that most warlock builds aren't creature heavy, not enought to justify the 14mana action and points in spell book construction.  Also there just isn't that many dark creatures out there that I want to play, the hellions, a dark pact slayer or 2, a lord of fire and that's bout it (would love the vampire if she could be my blood reaper).  I just think that for the 14mana I would rather play a hellion rather than my spawn point and have to wait 5-9turns for my pentagram to breakeven and play one of the 5 creatures I have in my deck.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Tacullu64 on February 05, 2013, 11:12:17 AM
Full disclosure, I have never played the pentagram. Ok, I've never played the warlock. The warlock is the mage that interests me the least. I have 2 priestess lists, 2 beastmaster lists, and a fire wizard build I still haven't tried ( the priestess builds are probably more modifications to my current book than actual new builds) and I still haven't put any effort into the warlock. My point, I'm not an expert on the warlock.

I am a prolific theory crafter though and I'm going to indulge my habit again, right here, right now.

It seems to me that the pentagram is a spell you play in the early game to get your pay off in the mid/ late game. I don't understand why the warlock has to start putting damage on the opposing mage right away. Isn't he allowed to spend some time building for the future? The warlock seems to be good at dealing more damage than his opponent. Once he starts the beatdown I don't think he wants to stop it just to play a creature to replace the one that just died. That's where I think the pentagram would come in, replacing creatures lost to attrition in the mid and late game without forcing the warlock to take a break from his offensive onslaught to cast a full round spell thus blunting his damage output.

I would think that while the warlock wants to start his beatdown sooner rather than later, more importantly he doesn't want to stall out once he starts.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: krj on February 05, 2013, 03:54:25 PM
Tacullu64 --- exactly!!! :D
Pentagram is cool :)
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: baronzaltor on February 05, 2013, 06:12:57 PM
Quote from: "Tacullu64" post=7100
I wonder, would the damage barrier from the demonhide armor power the pentagram?


I *Think* that works.  The mage gains the barrier ability, and its an attack roll so he is the one attacking.  So Im reasonably certain the barrier counterstrikes (or any counterstrikes) would trigger it.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Koz on February 06, 2013, 09:14:13 AM
Quote from: "Tacullu64" post=7123
Full disclosure, I have never played the pentagram. Ok, I've never played the warlock. The warlock is the mage that interests me the least. I have 2 priestess lists, 2 beastmaster lists, and a fire wizard build I still haven't tried ( the priestess builds are probably more modifications to my current book than actual new builds) and I still haven't put any effort into the warlock. My point, I'm not an expert on the warlock.

I am a prolific theory crafter though and I'm going to indulge my habit again, right here, right now.

It seems to me that the pentagram is a spell you play in the early game to get your pay off in the mid/ late game. I don't understand why the warlock has to start putting damage on the opposing mage right away. Isn't he allowed to spend some time building for the future? The warlock seems to be good at dealing more damage than his opponent. Once he starts the beatdown I don't think he wants to stop it just to play a creature to replace the one that just died. That's where I think the pentagram would come in, replacing creatures lost to attrition in the mid and late game without forcing the warlock to take a break from his offensive onslaught to cast a full round spell thus blunting his damage output.

I would think that while the warlock wants to start his beatdown sooner rather than later, more importantly he doesn't want to stall out once he starts.


The problem is the cost.  It's very expensive and doesn't generate the same return as the other spawnpoints.  That doesn't mean that the Pentagram can't be useful, just that it isn't that good, especially in comparison to the other spawnpoints.  

Bottom line is that the Warlock has better things to spend his mana on.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: krj on February 06, 2013, 09:42:10 AM
it's also incorporeal which makes it harder to destroy and i wouldn't say it's worse but different.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Tacullu64 on February 06, 2013, 10:47:11 AM
Quote from: "Koz" post=7173
Quote from: "Tacullu64" post=7123
Full disclosure, I have never played the pentagram. Ok, I've never played the warlock. The warlock is the mage that interests me the least. I have 2 priestess lists, 2 beastmaster lists, and a fire wizard build I still haven't tried ( the priestess builds are probably more modifications to my current book than actual new builds) and I still haven't put any effort into the warlock. My point, I'm not an expert on the warlock.

I am a prolific theory crafter though and I'm going to indulge my habit again, right here, right now.

It seems to me that the pentagram is a spell you play in the early game to get your pay off in the mid/ late game. I don't understand why the warlock has to start putting damage on the opposing mage right away. Isn't he allowed to spend some time building for the future? The warlock seems to be good at dealing more damage than his opponent. Once he starts the beatdown I don't think he wants to stop it just to play a creature to replace the one that just died. That's where I think the pentagram would come in, replacing creatures lost to attrition in the mid and late game without forcing the warlock to take a break from his offensive onslaught to cast a full round spell thus blunting his damage output.

I would think that while the warlock wants to start his beatdown sooner rather than later, more importantly he doesn't want to stall out once he starts.


The problem is the cost.  It's very expensive and doesn't generate the same return as the other spawnpoints.  That doesn't mean that the Pentagram can't be useful, just that it isn't that good, especially in comparison to the other spawnpoints.  

Bottom line is that the Warlock has better things to spend his mana on.


I think I am going to ask you to elaborate. I get that you don't like the pentagram but the reasons need further explanation.
 
I feel like I spend more setting up my Temple of Asyra than it takes to set up the pentagram. Spend 10 mana on the temple and 4 mana casting and activating harmonize. I spend 3 of the priestess's mana each of the next 2 turns using the temple to bring out 2 clerics to worship at the temple to get my bonus mana. The time varies depending on what the opposing mage is doing, but if left unmolested I can get the temple ready to start casting baddies on turn 4 spending 20 of my priestess's mana (big if).

The pentagram cost 14 mana and every time an opposing character takes damage get a free mana up to 2 per turn. No fuss no muss. Any damage I cause opposing characters I was going to do whether I cast the pentagram or not. I probably wouldn't have used that harmonize and cast the clerics if I wasn't trying to get the temple up and running as fast as possible. The clerics would probably still be in my book but probably not out so soon.

As for the warlock having better things to spend his mana on I would add the qualifier "in my warlock build" and that would make your statement ironclad and indisputable. Unless there is only one way to build a warlock I am going to hold out hope that someone will find a way to make the pentagram the smart play in their warlock build.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Koz on February 06, 2013, 11:55:12 AM
Quote from: "Tacullu64" post=7182
Quote from: "Koz" post=7173
Quote from: "Tacullu64" post=7123
Full disclosure, I have never played the pentagram. Ok, I've never played the warlock. The warlock is the mage that interests me the least. I have 2 priestess lists, 2 beastmaster lists, and a fire wizard build I still haven't tried ( the priestess builds are probably more modifications to my current book than actual new builds) and I still haven't put any effort into the warlock. My point, I'm not an expert on the warlock.

I am a prolific theory crafter though and I'm going to indulge my habit again, right here, right now.

It seems to me that the pentagram is a spell you play in the early game to get your pay off in the mid/ late game. I don't understand why the warlock has to start putting damage on the opposing mage right away. Isn't he allowed to spend some time building for the future? The warlock seems to be good at dealing more damage than his opponent. Once he starts the beatdown I don't think he wants to stop it just to play a creature to replace the one that just died. That's where I think the pentagram would come in, replacing creatures lost to attrition in the mid and late game without forcing the warlock to take a break from his offensive onslaught to cast a full round spell thus blunting his damage output.

I would think that while the warlock wants to start his beatdown sooner rather than later, more importantly he doesn't want to stall out once he starts.


The problem is the cost.  It's very expensive and doesn't generate the same return as the other spawnpoints.  That doesn't mean that the Pentagram can't be useful, just that it isn't that good, especially in comparison to the other spawnpoints.  

Bottom line is that the Warlock has better things to spend his mana on.


I think I am going to ask you to elaborate. I get that you don't like the pentagram but the reasons need further explanation.
 
I feel like I spend more setting up my Temple of Asyra than it takes to set up the pentagram. Spend 10 mana on the temple and 4 mana casting and activating harmonize. I spend 3 of the priestess's mana each of the next 2 turns using the temple to bring out 2 clerics to worship at the temple to get my bonus mana. The time varies depending on what the opposing mage is doing, but if left unmolested I can get the temple ready to start casting baddies on turn 4 spending 20 of my priestess's mana (big if).

The pentagram cost 14 mana and every time an opposing character takes damage get a free mana up to 2 per turn. No fuss no muss. Any damage I cause opposing characters I was going to do whether I cast the pentagram or not. I probably wouldn't have used that harmonize and cast the clerics if I wasn't trying to get the temple up and running as fast as possible. The clerics would probably still be in my book but probably not out so soon.

As for the warlock having better things to spend his mana on I would add the qualifier "in my warlock build" and that would make your statement ironclad and indisputable. Unless there is only one way to build a warlock I am going to hold out hope that someone will find a way to make the pentagram the smart play in their warlock build.


I posted a summary of the Pentagram and why I don't like it in a different thread.  Here is a summary:

"Pentagram: Worst spawnpoint IMO. The requirement that it only gains extra mana from damaging opposing creatures is much worse than the Priestess's temple and (especially) the Wizard's Gate to Voltari (which is the best spawnpoint). Once again, this ability is dependent on your opponent's build. If your opponent is playing few, or no, creatures, gaining extra mana is going to be difficult. It's Ethereal trait is not enough of a benefit to justify the harsher requirements of mana generation."

You have to keep in mind that I don't think ANY spawnpoint is all that good to begin with.  They are just too slow and expensive.  Most games I play just don't last long enough for spawnpoints to be worth the trouble.  They CAN be good, and they have their places in certain builds, but they are awfully expensive and a bit slow.  

To address your specific point about the Temple though, the advantage the Priestess has is that the Temple is cheaper to begin with and the Clerics can be used to heal/guard/attack, which makes them multi-purpose so it's not like they are just "mana batteries".  

With the Pentagram you are relying on damaging things which you might have some trouble with on certain turns.  If your opponent is playing few to no creatures you may not have as many targets to damage (limiting your ability to gain mana) and if your opponent is locking you down in any of a number of ways (Force Hold, Daze, Stun, Tanglevine, Push effects, Defense Dice, etc etc) you may not be generating ANY extra mana for a turn or two.  

Personally, I'd love to see my opponent drop a Pentagram.  It'd be a good indication that I'm about to steamroll him right into the earth ;)
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Koz on February 06, 2013, 12:09:22 PM
Quote from: "Tacullu64" post=7182
Quote from: "Koz" post=7173
Quote from: "Tacullu64" post=7123
Full disclosure, I have never played the pentagram. Ok, I've never played the warlock. The warlock is the mage that interests me the least. I have 2 priestess lists, 2 beastmaster lists, and a fire wizard build I still haven't tried ( the priestess builds are probably more modifications to my current book than actual new builds) and I still haven't put any effort into the warlock. My point, I'm not an expert on the warlock.

I am a prolific theory crafter though and I'm going to indulge my habit again, right here, right now.

It seems to me that the pentagram is a spell you play in the early game to get your pay off in the mid/ late game. I don't understand why the warlock has to start putting damage on the opposing mage right away. Isn't he allowed to spend some time building for the future? The warlock seems to be good at dealing more damage than his opponent. Once he starts the beatdown I don't think he wants to stop it just to play a creature to replace the one that just died. That's where I think the pentagram would come in, replacing creatures lost to attrition in the mid and late game without forcing the warlock to take a break from his offensive onslaught to cast a full round spell thus blunting his damage output.

I would think that while the warlock wants to start his beatdown sooner rather than later, more importantly he doesn't want to stall out once he starts.


The problem is the cost.  It's very expensive and doesn't generate the same return as the other spawnpoints.  That doesn't mean that the Pentagram can't be useful, just that it isn't that good, especially in comparison to the other spawnpoints.  

Bottom line is that the Warlock has better things to spend his mana on.


I think I am going to ask you to elaborate. I get that you don't like the pentagram but the reasons need further explanation.
 
I feel like I spend more setting up my Temple of Asyra than it takes to set up the pentagram. Spend 10 mana on the temple and 4 mana casting and activating harmonize. I spend 3 of the priestess's mana each of the next 2 turns using the temple to bring out 2 clerics to worship at the temple to get my bonus mana. The time varies depending on what the opposing mage is doing, but if left unmolested I can get the temple ready to start casting baddies on turn 4 spending 20 of my priestess's mana (big if).

The pentagram cost 14 mana and every time an opposing character takes damage get a free mana up to 2 per turn. No fuss no muss. Any damage I cause opposing characters I was going to do whether I cast the pentagram or not. I probably wouldn't have used that harmonize and cast the clerics if I wasn't trying to get the temple up and running as fast as possible. The clerics would probably still be in my book but probably not out so soon.

As for the warlock having better things to spend his mana on I would add the qualifier "in my warlock build" and that would make your statement ironclad and indisputable. Unless there is only one way to build a warlock I am going to hold out hope that someone will find a way to make the pentagram the smart play in their warlock build.


I posted a summary of the Pentagram and why I don't like it in a different thread.  Here is a summary:

"Pentagram: Worst spawnpoint IMO. The requirement that it only gains extra mana from damaging opposing creatures is much worse than the Priestess's temple and (especially) the Wizard's Gate to Voltari (which is the best spawnpoint). Once again, this ability is dependent on your opponent's build. If your opponent is playing few, or no, creatures, gaining extra mana is going to be difficult. It's Ethereal trait is not enough of a benefit to justify the harsher requirements of mana generation."

You have to keep in mind that I don't think ANY spawnpoint is all that good to begin with.  They are just too slow and expensive.  Most games I play just don't last long enough for spawnpoints to be worth the trouble.  They CAN be good, and they have their places in certain builds, but they are awfully expensive and a bit slow.  

To address your specific point about the Temple though, the advantage the Priestess has is that the Temple is cheaper to begin with and the Clerics can be used to heal/guard/attack, which makes them multi-purpose so it's not like they are just "mana batteries".  

With the Pentagram you are relying on damaging things which you might have some trouble with on certain turns.  If your opponent is playing few to no creatures you may not have as many targets to damage (limiting your ability to gain mana) and if your opponent is locking you down in any of a number of ways (Force Hold, Daze, Stun, Tanglevine, Push effects, Defense Dice, etc etc) you may not be generating ANY extra mana for a turn or two.  

Personally, I'd love to see my opponent drop a Pentagram.  It'd be a good indication that I'm about to steamroll him right into the earth ;)
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: piousflea on February 06, 2013, 02:51:12 PM
Theoretically speaking it seems like the Pentagram would combo well with an aggressive melee-attacking Warlock. Hitting stuff with your Lash would contribute 1 mana toward the Pentagram and you could summon creatures without using your own full actions.

However, I have yet to see Pentagram work well in an actual build. Blowing 14 mana early means that you are too weak to compete in early game melee. I don't like it.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Tacullu64 on February 06, 2013, 04:11:00 PM
Quote from: "piousflea" post=7199
Theoretically speaking it seems like the Pentagram would combo well with an aggressive melee-attacking Warlock. Hitting stuff with your Lash would contribute 1 mana toward the Pentagram and you could summon creatures without using your own full actions.

However, I have yet to see Pentagram work well in an actual build. Blowing 14 mana early means that you are too weak to compete in early game melee. I don't like it.


As I said in my original post I am not a warlock expert so I certainly haven't seen it work well yet either.

I am of the philosophy that there are quite a few cards that are situationally great and the way spellbooks are built allows us to take advantage of this. As an example that is not pentagram I'll use deathlock. I put deathlock in every non- priestess spell book I make. I have only ever used it against the priestess but for 4 build points I feel like I could afford to put it in.

I don't play warlock but if I did I would try to include a pentagram. I'm pretty sure it would never be used against another warlock or a beastmaster but I could envision senarios against the wizard and priestess where I would not want to use a full action in the mid or late game to summon a creature although it would still be in my best interest to summon something.

Some cards pose questions for your opponent to answer. Some cards answer your opponents questions. I am proposing that pentagram is used to answer the question of how do I summon a creature mid game and beyond when I don't want to take a full action with my warlock. I don't think it works as a threat that asks your opponent to answer it.
Title: Re: Pentagram
Post by: Aylin on February 26, 2013, 07:28:14 PM
The way I look at the Pentagram compared to the other spawnpoints is like this:

Gate to Voltari (http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/magewars/mage-wars-card-spoilers/_/core/gate-to-voltari-core):

14 mana to gain 1-3 mana per turn (most likely 2-3 but a mage casting no spells in a turn happens occasionally), with the added benefit of making your opponent not want to cast spells.

With the mental effect on your opponent and several good creatures that it's capable of summoning, it is a good spawn point.

Temple of Asyra (http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/magewars/mage-wars-card-spoilers/_/core/temple-of-asyra-core):

10 mana for 1 mana per turn, can spend 5 more mana twice to gain +1 mana per turn.

I consider this to be the most expensive spawnpoint.  Yes, the initial cost is 10 compared to 14/15, but for the other spawnpoints getting 2 mana per turn with them is not a stretch (Lair is base 2, Gate gets 2 if opponent casts 1 spell, Pentagram gets 2 if you hit the opponent's mage once with any creature) and to get two mana per turn it requires 15 mana spread out over two actions.  Additionally, the Gate and Pentagram can potentially get 3 mana per turn reliably against the right build (swarm for example) and for the Temple to get that it requires a third action and another 5 mana.

Now, on the other hand the Clerics have some minor utility for other things (though they have the worst attack of any creature and the healing is fairly negligible [an entire action for 1 damage healed on average does not seem worthwhile]) and the Temple itself has great synergy with the Temple of Light (http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/magewars/mage-wars-card-spoilers/_/core/temple-of-light-core).  Combined with the really powerful Holy creatures and the Priestess' power in the late game it can definitely be worth it despite the high cost in actions/mana to get it running.

Lair (http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/magewars/mage-wars-card-spoilers/_/core/lair-core):

15 mana for 2 mana per turn.

Fairly expensive (second only to the Temple) but definitely worthwhile for the Beastmaster due to the wide variety of creatures it can summon (especially for swarm builds).

Pentagram (http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/magewars/mage-wars-card-spoilers/_/core/pentagram-core)

14 mana for 1 mana per turn, up to 2 more mana per turn with successful attacks.

As a spawnpoint, I don't consider this one to be the "worst".  For a build that would use the Pentagram multiple creatures are likely, so even against creature-less builds it is fairly unlikely that all of them would be stunned/daze/miss (for example, a Forcemaster using the new ring that boosts defense die rolls by one with Cobra Reflexes, Bracers of Deflection, Force Orb, and Force Sword would give a 5% chance to negate 5 attacks in this way), so getting 2 mana per turn on most turns is not unreasonable.  Also, against builds that field multiple creatures getting three mana per turn out of it is almost guaranteed (as Firestorm, Ring of Fire, or Adramelech can each get 2+ attacks in for one action).  So as something that summons creatures I don't think it's that weak.  Ignoring what the spawnpoints can summon I'd place it at about the same level as the Lair, with the Temple and Gate being the two best in most circumstances.

The problem with Pentagram is that it can only summon Living Dark creatures, which throws out the Skeletal Sentry.  For Dark creatures under 10 mana worth summoning this leaves the bat (the imp isn't worth it in my opinion).  After that there are the two level 3 demons which are fairly good (though they aren't quite as good as one of the level 4+ dark creatures and cost almost as much).  Then of course there is the vampire, the werewolf, and the two named demons.

So all of the creatures worth fielding are fairly expensive, except for the bats, so in order to get full use out of the Pentagram is requires you to go into the late game.  And here is the big problem...the Warlock is strongest in the early to mid-game, with the other mages getting comparatively more powerful as the game takes more time.  This means that instead of spending 14 mana for a long-term benefit, it is better in many cases to spend that mana now for an immediate beatdown (like a turn 2 or 3 werewolf in your opponent's face).

Of course, this problem will probably be solved when more expansions come out featuring more low-level dark living creatures (and hopefully more demons) and perhaps some more cards that give benefits to demons, which it honestly feels like he should have (more things like Gate to Hell would be cool).


Summary:  While I don't think that the Pentagram is one of the best spawnpoints, I would put it on par with the Lair in terms of mana generation.  The problem I have with it is that the summonable targets either are too weak or are extremely-powerful beasts that are better to summon immediately instead of waiting for the Pentagram (or any spawnpoint) to generate the mana required to bring it to the arena.