May 05, 2024, 07:53:10 AM

Author Topic: Opening against the double attack spells?  (Read 4444 times)

Phoenix

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Opening against the double attack spells?
« on: May 05, 2015, 07:53:15 AM »
     I recently watched an arcane duel youtube, in which the johkari BM opened with a rush with double hurl boulder.  After pondering how I would react to this opening with my druid, I came to the sad conclusion that there is no way to protect my tree from this aggressive move. Also came to the realization that this was not limited to just the Johkari, though other mages would first have to cast a fd  cheetah speed to get into range.  Any mage could open this way, some examples would be the force master double force hammer or warlock double fireball.
     I could wall in the tree to block line of sight but that would either leave me on the wrong side of the wall and the target, or walled in with my tree, giving free reign of the arena to my opponent.
     I could cast a fd reverse attack or block on myself, but that leaves my tree exposed.  In conclusion I believe that if the opposing mage is determined to destroy my tree, I have no choice.  But, he would have spent about 16 mana and two whole turns to destroy my one action and 7 or 8 mana conjuration.  I think the druid still comes out ok.
     How would you handle an opponent that moves one and casts two FD enchantments, or runs two and casts a ring or fd enchantment on turn two?  Assuming that on turn one you cast the druids leaf ring and bonded to your tree of choice? 

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Opening against the double attack spells?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2015, 08:48:21 AM »
You could put a [mwcard=MW1E38]Teleport Trap[/mwcard] or a [mwcard=MWSTX1CKE05]Spiked Pit[/mwcard]in your NC during the First Quickcast Phase. The Spiked Pit would hold her for at least one round. You would have 12-13 mana left and you could [mwcard=FWA04]Hurl Boulder[/mwcard]. Then next round (if you didn't start with Initiative) you could Hurl Boulder + [mwcard=MWSTX2FFA02]Hurl Rock[/mwcard]. At that point you have laid down 23 dice of damage and if she fails her escape roll you have more time to beat on her and I don't think she would be worried about the three much at that point. Now she could [mwcard=MW1I28]Teleport[/mwcard] during the 1st Quickcast Phase of the 2nd Round so you would throw your Hurl Rock first and then your 2nd Hurl Boulder. She should start kiting at that point and you fill the board up with Vine Markers, keep the Elusive Trait off of her, and pair up some [mwcard=DNC20]Vine Snappers[/mwcard] and [mwcard=DNC21]Thornlasher[/mwcard] and you will take her down rather quickly.

A [mwcard=DNQ08]Vinewhip Staff[/mwcard] could help alot here too.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Phoenix

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Opening against the double attack spells?
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2015, 09:35:29 AM »
sIKE,
      Thank you for the response.  The zone enchantment is easily avoided.  If I stay in my corner, then the fast mage goes around the NC to attack with the double force hammers etc.  If I move to the center spot on my side, then with a range of two the mage just does not enter the zone with the enchantment.
     I truly believe that if my son wishes to destroy my tree, there is really nothing I can do to stop it, shy of completely walling it in, and that has it's own problems.
     I do think that this is not a good tactic to use, because it puts all of his first two turn resources into killing a conjuration that I used only one quick cast, and 7 mana to create and gives me the initiative.  The difference in actions, mana and tempo should make it a difficult game for him, even though I have to play without my tree.

What do you think?

Puddnhead

  • Member of Arcane Duels; MageCast Co-host
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1547
  • Banana Stickers 8
    • View Profile
Re: Opening against the double attack spells?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2015, 09:43:12 AM »
Armor up.  The Druid can be the single most protected character in the game due to [mwcard=DNE01]Barkskin[/mwcard].  Sure, the Warlord will do it more often, but even he cannot reach the heights of the Druid who makes it her goal to be armored.  Given the plentiful access to regeneration effects that you have you should be able to outlast a spell slinger with a few well placed walls or teleports even without your tree.  That "Rushmaster" book that you saw showcased will crumple if you survive 4-5 turns.

You need a creature as well.  If you're running something with intercept get it out fast. ([mwcard=DNC18]Togorah, Forest Sentinel[/mwcard] might take too long.  The classic choice is [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC06]Guardian Angel[/mwcard].  If you prefer an alternative, I'd suggest [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC08]Gargoyle Sentry[/mwcard] due to its high armor and tough -3 to reduce the chances of burn or stun.

Also, you don't have to worry about Elusive because that only dodges creatures.  Your vines, being conjurations, will hinder the opposing mage anyway.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

Phoenix

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Opening against the double attack spells?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2015, 09:59:03 AM »
I put a lot of thought into including Togorah, Forest Sentinel, Guardian Angel, or Gargoyle to protect the bonded tree.  I have to agree that Togorah is too slow, the guardian Angel and Gargoyle are both viable choices.  My 'buddy' of choice have become either Cervere, The Forest Shadow or Galador, Protector of Straywood.
My thought is if someone puts that much effort into destroying my tree, the druid's barkskin and one of those creatures will give me the advantage.
If I have the enchanter's ring and the druids Leaf ring equipped the casting and reveal cost of that cantrip is equal to its upkeep.
From the conversation so far, it seems my premise would be true.  cast and forget the tree.  If they concentrate on the tree, buddy up and press the advantage and go for a short game.  If they allow it to live, focus on the longer game of controlling the board.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Opening against the double attack spells?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2015, 10:28:48 AM »
I was really focused on countering the double move opening. Of course he can work around the Trap but that is to your advantage as you want to get Vine Markers out and flooded across the board as quickly as possible to hinder the Joktari BM and negate his innate Fast trait and even Elusive doesn't work against the Vine Markers so your open should focus on slowing the BM down fast enough that you can bring the board under your control. It might be worth a sacrificial tree or a Force Push + Teleport Trap to buy the time as time is on your side in this match up. The Vinewhip Staff would be a tool to use against her, as I stated previously...
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Puddnhead

  • Member of Arcane Duels; MageCast Co-host
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1547
  • Banana Stickers 8
    • View Profile
Re: Opening against the double attack spells?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2015, 11:43:23 AM »
Ah, I see now.  My apologies for my misunderstanding, Mr. sIKE.  Your option tries to keep his strategy mostly the same and give him a few more stall tactics whereas my option adapts his entire long-game strategy to adapt to the forced quick-game strategy.

Most likely your book will remain better intact if you follow sIKE's sage advice.  I would carefully weigh the decisions.  It does seem like your usual opponent (an upstart youngster  ;)) likes the more rush oriented builds so you may want to build a book that excels in that circumstance and can transition to longer games if necessary rather than planning on the long game only to encounter a rush every time.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
  • Banana Stickers 4
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
Re: Opening against the double attack spells?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2015, 11:50:44 AM »
even Elusive doesn't work against the Vine Markers

?!?
elusive says: "can ignore enemy creatures"
so... it does mean that enemy conjurations can hinder an elusive?

Boocheck

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2108
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Opening against the double attack spells?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2015, 11:56:46 AM »
Only vine markers so far has this ability. They hinder non-flying enemy creatures.

As a priestess, i was trying to protect my spawn point by [mwcard=MW1W01]Fog Bank[/mwcard] but druid or his tree need LoS for casting on Vine Markers. What about [mwcard=MWSTX2FFJ06]Rolling Fog[/mwcard] ? This could also do the trick and provide more time :)
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
I am one with the force, the force is with me! (Warlord is still my fav mage ;) )

Borg

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 571
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Opening against the double attack spells?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2015, 01:32:07 PM »
     I recently watched an arcane duel youtube, in which the johkari BM opened with a rush with double hurl boulder.  After pondering how I would react to this opening with my druid, I came to the sad conclusion that there is no way to protect my tree from this aggressive move.

If you cast your Tree on R1 and you have initiative in R2 you can cast an Intercept creature + [mwcard=MWSTX2FFI06] Defend[/mwcard].
That should stop the double Hurl Boulder attack imo as your opponent is probably not going to spend 16 mana to see 8 mana of it intercepted and possibly Defensed and fail in the destruction of the Tree.

Problems can arise however if you've already moved out of your Tree's zone,
therefore, if you suspect this kind of agressive opening, or simply as a rule of thumb against a Johktari Beastmaster : cast your Intercept creature in R1 and postpone your Tree to R2.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 01:39:23 PM by Borg »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

Phoenix

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Opening against the double attack spells?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2015, 03:20:15 PM »
      I agree that the Johkari BM is one of the most common for this type of opening, but it is not exclusive to him.  Any wizard is able to use this type of opening, the turn one casts would just be face down cheetah speed, and face down hawk eye, instead of Hawk eye and Akiro's Favor. I unfortunately do not get to play in a regular group, how prevalent is this hyper-aggressive opening?
     Is it something that is used a lot in competitive play?  Is it something to even be concerned about.

Borg

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 571
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Opening against the double attack spells?
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2015, 03:43:17 PM »
Is it something to even be concerned about.
I'd say "no" considering how many mages enchant themselves with a Brace Yourself asap.
You get +4 armor for an entire round for just 2 mana while the opponent wastes 16 mana for an average of 8 damage. I guess you can see for yourself who'll come out the big winner in that exchange.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 03:46:32 PM by Borg »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

Phoenix

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Opening against the double attack spells?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2015, 07:47:45 PM »
I think I have finally decided on my go to opening.  Turn 1(19mana) quick cast Mohktari (8 mana) and tree bond to it.  Full cast the gargoyle (11 mana). This gives me 10 mana on turn 2 and a lot of options depending on the position and level of aggression of my opponent.