Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => General Questions => Topic started by: iNano78 on March 03, 2015, 11:03:32 AM
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Had a couple questions come up regarding some Forcemaster card interactions that we couldn't firmly resolve via a quick forum/Google search:
1) A Forcemaster has a [mwcard=FWE05]Forcefield[/mwcard] up with 1 or more tokens on it. The Forcemaster attacks a creature with a damage barrier (e.g. [mwcard=MW1E06]Circle of Lightning[/mwcard]). During the damage barrier step, does the barrier's "unavoidable" attack get canceled by removing a Forcefield token?
2) An invisible [mwcard=FWC08]Invisible Stalker[/mwcard] walks into a bar zone with a facedown [mwcard=MW1E38]Teleport Trap[/mwcard]. (A) Does the [mwcard=MW1E38]Teleport Trap[/mwcard] flip up? (We assumed yes, since an enemy creature entered the zone). (B) Does the invisible [mwcard=FWC08]Invisible Stalker[/mwcard] get teleported away by the trap? (Not sure if the trap "targets" the creature that triggered it or not, and since invisible creatures can't be targeted...)
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Had a couple questions come up regarding some Forcemaster card interactions that we couldn't firmly resolve via a quick forum/Google search:
1) A Forcemaster has a Forcefield up with 1 or more tokens on it. The Forcemaster attacks a creature with a damage barrier (e.g. Circle of Lightning). During the damage barrier step, does the barrier's "unavoidable" attack get canceled by removing a Forcefield token?
2) An invisible Invisible Stalker walks into a bar zone with a facedown Teleport Trap. (A) Does the Teleport Trap flip up? (We assumed yes, since an enemy creature entered the zone). (B) Does the invisible Invisible Stalker get teleported away by the trap? (Not sure if the trap "targets" the creature that triggered it or not, and since invisible creatures can't be targeted...)
1) Yes.
2A) Yes. The trap does not target the creature, it just activates when the creature enters the zone.
2B) Yes.
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ACG is absolutely correct. Forcefield works even against unavoidable attacks like Damage Barriers, and the Teleport Trap does not need to target the creature so it does work against Invisible creatures just fine.
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For further detail, notice that on [mwcard=FWE05]Forcefield[/mwcard] it says the prevention occurs before the Avoid Attack Step, which is when all Defenses occur. It also never refers to itself as a Defense. Therefore, the Unavoidable trait, which allows an attack to bypass Defenses, has no effect on it. For absolute certainty though, you can also look up Forcefield on page 36 of the Rules Supplement and it tells you that it works on Unavoidable attacks there.
For [mwcard=MW1E38]Teleport Trap[/mwcard] you just have to pay attention to the fact that it never uses the word "target" when referencing the creature. That word is very important on spells and you only have to target something when it is present (or if the something is in the target bar). If the word is not present, then targeting is not required. You'll also notice that it does not mention "target" when referring to the the "zone of your choice" either (clarified on page 48 of the rules supplement), so you don't need line of sight to where you send the creature to. You could easily send the critter to the other side of a wall and really mess with him. Possibly even wall him in completely.
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For further detail, notice that on [mwcard=FWE05]Forcefield[/mwcard] it says the prevention occurs before the Avoid Attack Step, which is when all Defenses occur. It also never refers to itself as a Defense. Therefore, the Unavoidable trait, which allows an attack to bypass Defenses, has no effect on it. For absolute certainty though, you can also look up Forcefield on page 36 of the Rules Supplement and it tells you that it works on Unavoidable attacks there.
That's how we played it. The "unavoidable" part wasn't what tripped us up - that's clearly explained in the rules and FAQ/Codex. What led us to question it is that a damage barrier triggers at a particular point in the attack sequence (step 6) and we weren't sure if the barrier's attack has its own full Attack sequence (beginning with declaring target and having its own avoid attack step, etc) or not. Now we know
For [mwcard=MW1E38]Teleport Trap[/mwcard] you just have to pay attention to the fact that it never uses the word "target" when referencing the creature. That word is very important on spells and you only have to target something when it is present (or if the something is in the target bar). If the word is not present, then targeting is not required. You'll also notice that it does not mention "target" when referring to the the "zone of your choice" either (clarified on page 48 of the rules supplement), so you don't need line of sight to where you send the creature to. You could easily send the critter to the other side of a wall and really mess with him. Possibly even wall him in completely.
That's what we thought, but couldn't find it confirmed anywhere. Thanks.
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I'm not convinced by your arguments about the interaction between a damage barrier and Forcefield. Unavoidable is a bit of a red herring because the fact that it is unavoidable is irrelevant (you don't even go through the avoid attack step for a damage barrier attack, so even if it wasn't unavoidable you couldn't use defenses against it), it's just there so that new players are more likely to play it correctly, though it makes people think that you can remove Block/Reverse Attack with a damage barrier, so it's not ideal. Since you don't have an avoid attack step, I'm not convinced that the Forcefield's before the avoid attack step ability should trigger.
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Looking at the rulebook explanation of damage barrier:
Damage barriers are a special type of attack, and
are neither melee nor ranged attacks. They only
have 2 steps to follow when attacking: 1) Roll Dice
and 2) Damage and Effects. They will not trigger
another damage barrier attack or a counterstrike.
It appears you are right. The damage barrier should ignore the Forcefield.
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Looking at the rulebook explanation of damage barrier:
Damage barriers are a special type of attack, and
are neither melee nor ranged attacks. They only
have 2 steps to follow when attacking: 1) Roll Dice
and 2) Damage and Effects. They will not trigger
another damage barrier attack or a counterstrike.
It appears you are right. The damage barrier should ignore the Forcefield.
Ok. Hmmm. So we played it wrong after all. Now we know for next time.
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I apologize for focusing on the Unavoidable trait. This question is a bit more nuanced than that, however I still maintain that the Forcefield would cancel the Damage Barrier. There's no reason to think it wouldn't cancel it except for the fact that the Damage Barrier skips the Avoid Attack Step. However, Forcefield doesn't happen during the Avoid Attack Step. It happens in between the Declare Attack step and the Avoid Attack step, which makes it kind of special.
There is no reason to think that the Damage Barrier bypasses the Forcefield just because it skips the first two combat steps. Since the Forcefield is used outside of the normal combat steps, it could very easily occur before the Roll Dice Step still yet. It would be similar to Daze, which says that if you skip steps you still roll for the effect at the beginning of the attack.
Also, before anyone asks, Daze does not affect Damage Barriers because the barrier itself is making the attack, not the creature. You can't Daze a Damage Barrier currently.
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Just remove the Forcefield token before you skip the Avoid Attack Step, in otherwords.
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I think this needs official clarification, just in case. If we're going by rules as written instead of rules as intended, and the rules state that damage barriers only have those two steps, then Forcefield would not remove a token against damage barriers.
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I think this needs official clarification, just in case. If we're going by rules as written instead of rules as intended, and the rules state that damage barriers only have those two steps, then Forcefield would not remove a token against damage barriers.
I was afraid you'd say that. Well, when we were making FvW we wanted Forcefield to always work as long as it had a token. So, until I can confirm with Bryan otherwise, Forcefield works against counterstrikes.
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I think he meant damage barriers. I agree this should get a mention in the rules supplement also, but I don't think it goes against the rules as written since the forcefield triggers outside of those steps, there is no place that says damage barrier skips it. Skipping steps that don't involve the forcefield does not mean you skip the forcefield, and lacking anything saying to skip it (especially after hearing the design intention) it would not be skipped.
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Wow, I was thinkn' damage barrier even as I typed "counterstrikes"... wow long day. I meant Damage Barrier earlier.
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I think this needs official clarification, just in case. If we're going by rules as written instead of rules as intended, and the rules state that damage barriers only have those two steps, then Forcefield would not remove a token against damage barriers.
I was afraid you'd say that. Well, when we were making FvW we wanted Forcefield to always work as long as it had a token. So, until I can confirm with Bryan otherwise, Forcefield works against counterstrikes.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14813.0
Has this changed?
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I think this needs official clarification, just in case. If we're going by rules as written instead of rules as intended, and the rules state that damage barriers only have those two steps, then Forcefield would not remove a token against damage barriers.
I was afraid you'd say that. Well, when we were making FvW we wanted Forcefield to always work as long as it had a token. So, until I can confirm with Bryan otherwise, Forcefield works against counterstrikes.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14813.0
Has this changed?
No, but that's not really the issue. If a Forcemaster with an active Forcefield attacks a Warlock with Demonhide Armor, does the damage barrier from Demonhide Armor trigger Forcefield or not? That's not addressed in the thread you linked.
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• Skip the Damage Barrier and Counterstrike Steps. However a Guard marker is still removed.
That bullet point from the link I posted?
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You skip those steps after Forcefield has been used to cancel an attack, yes. That is still in effect. The question was the opposite though, can you use Forcefield after a Damage Barrier is triggered to cancel the Damage Barrier attack.
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That (within the context of the question) tells you what happens once you know that an attack is already being skipped due to Forcefield, it does not address whether a damage barrier attack will trigger Forcefield. Put another way, the text you're referring to just says that if a Forcemaster has Circle of Lightning and Forcefield on, a creature attacks her in melee, and the attack is avoided due to the Forcefield, that creature won't get hit by the damage barrier attack from Circle of Lightning. It does not describe whether the Forcemaster will get hit by damage barriers when she makes melee attacks and has an active Forcefield enchanting her.
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OIC, I guess we need a ruling on this though I am guessing the intent is that Forcefield will absorb the attack Damage Barrier at the cost of a token.
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OIC, I guess we need a ruling on this though I am guessing the intent is that Forcefield will absorb the attack Damage Barrier at the cost of a token.
We have one, unless it gets overturned
I was afraid you'd say that. Well, when we were making FvW we wanted Forcefield to always work as long as it had a token. So, until I can confirm with Bryan otherwise, Forcefield works against counterstrikes damage barriers.
I fixed the og post
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I'll be forwarding this on to Bryan. Hopefully he'll rule on it soon.
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I'll be forwarding this on to Bryan. Hopefully he'll rule on it soon.
Thanks for looking into this. We assumed it was a relatively common situation and didn't expect it to lead to such a rules debate. As casual fans of the game who are starting organized play, we're as interested in the process (e.g. arguments for and against a ruling, and where to get official rulings on ambiguous situations) as the resolution.
Another quick question, just to be sure we understand correctly:
The Wizard has already activated in a given round. The Forcemaster casts [mwcard=FWI03]Force Bash[/mwcard] on the Wizard to push him 1 zone and put a Slam condition marker on him. The next time the Wizard activates (next round, in this case), he flips the Slam condition to a Daze condition. Does this Daze condition go away at the end of this same activation - e.g. the same activation that he flipped it from Slam to Daze - or does it stick around until his next activation (next round)? It seems the former is correct based on the timing of when these conditions get flipped/removed (marked in red below).
Slam (Condition Marker)
Creature is Incapacitated. When this creature is activated remove Slam and replace with a Daze condition. Unmovable creatures receive a Daze condition instead of Slam. Has a removal cost of 3.
Daze (Condition Marker)
Creature is disoriented and/or blinded. Whenever this creature makes an attack, roll the effect die at the end of the Declare Attack Step. If the attack skips that step, then roll as soon as the attack starts. If the result is 7 or higher, the attack is resolved normally. If the result is 6 or less, the attack "misses" its target and is considered to have been avoided (even if the attack is Unavoidable). If it makes a Zone Attack, only check once: the entire attack either fails or succeeds. If a creature has more than one Daze on it, roll only one time to see if the creature misses. In addition, the Dazed creature suffers a -2 penalty to all Defense rolls for each Daze marker it has. All Daze markers are removed at the end of the creature's Action Phase. Daze has a removal cost of 2. Conjurations cannot be Dazed.
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It gets removed at the end of the same action phase.
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You might consider downloading the >>>Rules Supplement<<< (http://www.arcanewonders.com/resources/Mage_Wars_Official_Rules_and_Codex_Supplement.pdf). If you can't find an answer in the rules or the codex, the rules supplement will usually have it.
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You might consider downloading the >>>Rules Supplement<<< (http://www.arcanewonders.com/resources/Mage_Wars_Official_Rules_and_Codex_Supplement.pdf). If you can't find an answer in the rules or the codex, the rules supplement will usually have it.
We had it printed out and on-hand. Still, it leads to some downtime when you often have to check the Codex (2.0), Official Rules and Codex Supplement (sometimes in more than one possible location within that document), and then sometimes get redirected back to the main rule book. It's too bad there isn't one all-encompassing document/app that's easily searched with a mobile device while at the table.
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Ah yes, it is explained quite clearly in there. I thought I'd already checked it but must have only checked the Codex:
Slam (Forcemaster vs. Warlord)
Slam is a temporary Incapacitation, designed to represent a creature being knocked down to the ground, and then quickly getting up again as soon as it acts again. It is removed as soon as that creature is activated (and replaced with the Daze condition), and this represents that creature “standing back up”.
Thus, a Slam will not prevent a creature from taking their Action Phase. The Daze will then go away at the end of that Action Phase as normal.
Slam is useful for removing a Guard marker, or temporarily taking away Defenses, or the Flying trait (which all occur because of Incapacitation).