Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: Cyborgs Gaming on April 25, 2013, 08:06:20 PM
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Lately I've been more interested in playing the Warlock. I think I have a pretty good spell book put together, but it is hard to really say since only one person locally has as much experience at Mage Wars as I do. I haven't found any way whatsoever that Helm of Fear is even useable, let alone a good choice. Has anyone gotten any good use out of it? Does anyone use it at all? It seems severely underpowered to me. There are a lot more efficient ways to accomplish the same thing or get much better effects for the same or lower cost, and these are spells that are usable by all the mages. only a 1 in 4 chance of the Helm working and even then the attacker can re-target the attack. It only works on melee attacks and it is rather expensive to cast. It doesn't even work on all melee attacks or counterstrike. Normally when I see something that is specific to a particular mage only I expect it to be very useful. Here I just find it to be a waste of mana. Any countering views are do most agree with me here?
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Helm of Fear is really meant more for very controlling Warlock builds, where you can see it pay off over a longer period of time. It essentially functions as an infinite defense, but is arguably better in that context since it is one of only two spells (the other being Forcefield) that can stop Unavoidable attacks, which can be a nightmare for control builds.
Of course, the additional benefit is that you can also have Deflection Bracers AND the Helm equipped for a pretty solid chance to avoid an attack no matter the situation, since one activates in the declare attack step while the other activates during the avoid attack step. As it's an equipment, you can still lean on the Battleforge as your main mana/action advantage conjuration.
That said, it's not something you just throw out there like the Whip and expect it to be good. You should use it mostly against more mid-late game Beastmaster and Warlord builds, which can gain a massive action advantage via hordes (which you're going to inevitably face since, as a very controlling Warlock, you've conceded your early game).
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The advantage is that it works against unavoidable melee attacks too. The only other card that counters unavoidable melee attacks right now is the Forcemaster's Forcefield. I will leave it up to you to decide if that makes it worth using. I'm not sure and I don't play warlock much anyways. I'm pretty sure aggressive Warlock builds have better things to spend their mana on.
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hmm, didn't realize it worked against "unavoidable" attacks. I thought unavoidable attacks were... unavoidable. Guess I was wrong. False advertisment there.
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Helm of Fear is amazing....if you dont put that in a warlock book....you better have something else thats "amazinger" to replace it.....I dissolve that thing the seconded I see it. It has its down sides, mainly that Invisible stalker, Iron golem, earth elemental, and undead ect. bypass it.
but have that, and some deflection bracers, or a orb/sword (The defense enchantments) and the warlock becomes as hard to hit as the forcemaster.
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I wouldn't call the Helm amazing...it's good with a heavy DoT control (Malacoda, Skeletal Sentries, Idol, Poison Gas Cloud, lots of Ghoul Rot, etc) build as a top-curve equip but beyond that I never put it in my book. Now Sectarus, on the other hand, is really starting to shine as the Warlock's universally best equipment. Combine it with a spawnpoint and the action advantage is insane, and you don't have to worry about elemental resistance like you do with the Whip. Though, for pure damage, I don't think anything competes with the Whip.
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against a solo mage....helm is amazing. Its only a 8+ (I believe) but thats a 8+ on top of any other defenses for that attack....not to mention that its not ready/used ability....plus...what other helm are you going to use for the warlock??
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hmm, didn't realize it worked against "unavoidable" attacks. I thought unavoidable attacks were... unavoidable. Guess I was wrong. False advertisment there.
INB4 anyone ask.
Unavoidable means "Bypassing defenses", and Helms ability is not a defense. Just a "Counter" like ability.
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Well, I've been convinced that the helm is very much usable. Now that I think about it also, I only use a few creatures in my Warlock build. If I'm not using creatures it makes it even better. I think now maybe I'll see about replacing something else with that. It certainly isn't as important as the ring of curses, ring of fire, that awesome damage barrier armor, the sword, or that amulet. I can see now that it is worth having at least. Even if it doesn't actually get used.
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I know I hate to play against it.....maybe the warlock in my group is just lucky....but I hate that card...
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None of the magewars defenses work against my spellbook anymore (especially my Wizard or Warlock deck). I just use direct damage for the most part or also known as upkeep damages.
If I see the Helm of Fear, I would probably dissove it but better yet if I am playing warlock versus warlock I would Explode it (Incantation).
Most of my game play I don't see it in anybodys spellbook. I don't even put it in mine. For the mana, I would just use other armor enchants or leather boots and gloves.
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Im not going to lie...that surprises me. Then again, I most see the warlock as a solo mage, who has a battle forge, and tons of mana to spare.
Even then...I think is a great card.
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against a solo mage....helm is amazing. Its only a 8+ (I believe) but thats a 8+ on top of any other defenses for that attack....not to mention that its not ready/used ability....plus...what other helm are you going to use for the warlock??
Does anyone actually play a true "solo mage" build anymore? Absolutely worst build, hands down. Way too easy to counter and shut down.
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against a solo mage....helm is amazing. Its only a 8+ (I believe) but thats a 8+ on top of any other defenses for that attack....not to mention that its not ready/used ability....plus...what other helm are you going to use for the warlock??
Does anyone actually play a true "solo mage" build anymore? Absolutely worst build, hands down. Way too easy to counter and shut down.
Personally I don't care for solo mage. The solo mage really appeals to some though, especially those just playing for fun who don't care if their build can win a tournament or not.
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against a solo mage....helm is amazing. Its only a 8+ (I believe) but thats a 8+ on top of any other defenses for that attack....not to mention that its not ready/used ability....plus...what other helm are you going to use for the warlock??
Does anyone actually play a true "solo mage" build anymore? Absolutely worst build, hands down. Way too easy to counter and shut down.
Personally I don't care for solo mage. The solo mage really appeals to some though, especially those just playing for fun who don't care if their build can win a tournament or not.
True enough, and I didn't mean to come off as condescending or anything to any group that doesn't play competitively. I guess if you don't have at least one competitive player in your group, you can play all the "fun" builds you want and have a blast.
But I'd guess that anyone playing a solo-mage build isn't playing against too many Daze/Stun lock builds or any Weak/Cripple builds. Or, if they are, they sure aren't having much fun ;)
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Currently the meta is solo style Mage + 1-2 threat creatures are the strongest builds. This may change as we move closer to convention season.
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^ Thats what I thought....Bashcon was taken by a solo warlock (That includes 1-2 threats....by definition of the build, I guess I should of said that?) So I dont know why solo mage is being dismissed as "Non-competitive."
Also...I would call my forcemaster build with a invisible stalker and four thoughtspores a "Solo mage build" because thats what it is.
I dont mean to sound like a jerk (Or Im clarifying that Im not being a jerk rather).....but what meta are you guys playing in that a solo mage build is not considered competitive???
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If you're using creatures, it's not a solo build.
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If you're using creatures, it's not a solo build.
Exactly! People need to use better terminology. Solo means just that, SOLO! Saying that a mage + 1-2 creatures is "solo" is like saying my Beastmaster is "solo + swarm". It just makes no sense.
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^ Thats what I thought....Bashcon was taken by a solo warlock (That includes 1-2 threats....by definition of the build, I guess I should of said that?) So I dont know why solo mage is being dismissed as "Non-competitive."
Also...I would call my forcemaster build with a invisible stalker and four thoughtspores a "Solo mage build" because thats what it is.
I dont mean to sound like a jerk (Or Im clarifying that Im not being a jerk rather).....but what meta are you guys playing in that a solo mage build is not considered competitive???
This makes no sense. You're basically saying anything that isn't a swarm is "solo". If you have other creatures out, you're not solo. BY DEFINITION.
A true "solo" mage would get roflstomped into the floor by any competently played Daze/Stun lock build or Weak/Cripple build. The ONLY mage that might have a chance in that situation is the Forcemaster due to her Forcefield. Maybe.
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Saying 1-2 big creatures plus mage beatdown/equipment makes much more sense to me than 1-2 big creatures plus solo mage.
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against a solo mage....helm is amazing. Its only a 8+ (I believe) but thats a 8+ on top of any other defenses for that attack....not to mention that its not ready/used ability....plus...what other helm are you going to use for the warlock??
Does anyone actually play a true "solo mage" build anymore? Absolutely worst build, hands down. Way too easy to counter and shut down.
I know I don't. Even with a Battleforge, solo builds are just too action inefficient/starved; the Forcemaster is about as close as you can get to a fully solo mage, but even then she uses a couple creatures.
Point being, you COULD spend several turns pumping out equips until you're ready to mount some kind of assault...or you could just summon Adramelech T2, or Goran T1 and a Slayer T2, and then immediate go to town.
@Darth: It's not like the Warlock somehow always needs his Helm. Competitively, that certainly isn't the case with aggro builds, and thematically, a less-armored, more berserker-like Warlock makes a lot more sense for those builds.
The Helm is a good card and has a place in very controlling Warlock builds. I've played the Warlock 3 ways; Aggro (Adramelech + friends), Midrange-Aggro (heavy use of Pentagram), and Control (bleed out other mage with Idol and DoT effects). For me, at least, the Helm has only ever pulled its weight in the control build.
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Most of the time I think "Solo" as Solo + 1/2 baddies if needed to augment against action deficiencies of swarms. The style of play doesn't change much, my mage is the primary vehicle to deal damage on the opposing mage. But I do see how it could be confusing for some.
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I think the closest thing I could find reasonable for truely solo Mage is a Forcemaster with only an invisible stalker. I could kind of see going on. I think a solo Warlock is reasonable too. I only have 7 in mine right now.
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That is why in my post I said solo style build.
Not solo mage bulid.
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Really?.....whatever. :P And a build that focuses on buffing/equipping a solo mage and has a creature (for whatever reason) is a solo build to me....(Playing a forcemaster and using thoughtspores as living mage wands....thats a solo build.)
The game is in its infancy.... terminology created by players is far from written in stone.
What is being said (not everything obviously! :lol: ) is akin to saying that a counter spell deck in MtG cant have a creature or two....or its not a counter spell build. (a lot control does have a few fattys to drop at the end)
(If you play MtG or any game for that matter...you would know that each archetype has very different builds, it is ment to be a BROAD idea of decks or strategies that have been prevalent in several tournaments and have showed results repeatedly)
And I never said the warlock needs his Helm of Fear ....Im just trying to argue the applications and worth of the card.
I don't even have to say any of this really.......But there you go. ;) And I guess if it makes you happy..."Solo style" (New song idea for Psy song.....)
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We often see eye to eye on things like this. I knew some people would disagree so I chose my wordiing carefuly.
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I can kind of see the argument for Thoughtspores, but not if you're using an Invisible Stalker or Lord of Fire or something. Thoughtspores are essentially autonomous wands, although they are actually creatures, so solo still seems a little off if you're using them.
While solo style is certainly better than solo as a descriptor for those builds, I still think it would be better to use other terminology because you're using creatures. When I think of solo style, I think about how a solo mage's style would differ from one with creatures, so I usually think about using cards that punish creature plays like Mordok's Obelisk, Idol of Pestilence, or Suppression Orb.
The counter spell deck comparison is not very good, since a counter spell deck does not include the information in the name that it doesn't use creatures. It just says that it uses counters. Using creatures does not preclude having your strategy centered around counter spells. Using creatures does preclude playing solo.
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Using cards that punish creatures (Mordok's Obelisk, Idol of Pestilence, or Suppression Orb) are more in the realm of control. But unless that is your entire strategy...they could just be cards that are some extra options in a different build. ie.....a solo warlock deck can use these cards and is still a solo build....so I dont know why a creature as a tool would make it any different.
When I think of solo mage......all that matters is that you spend all your resources pumping up your mage.....and non stop using him as your beatstick. If you play a few different cards then what your focus is along the way....that doesnt change your build.
I play creatures to take the heat off and preform a goal in a solo mage build......Im always the threat, and that never changes. I always focus the majority of resources on my mage.
My opponent plays non-stop creatures...buffing them, not focusing on himself at all....staying in his starting zone, playing conjurations that pump up his creatures more. Using a build that focus is one canines and then sending out a Alpha Claw. Then enchanting the Alpha Claw with six enchantments......that is a swarm build. (Tribal would be the correct name for this example, conjurations serve as "banners")
Im only going to argue what my points are....if you dont agree thats fine...Im not going to try and change your views or ideas....I will say, I wouldnt even argue them if I didnt feel that I was correct though.
But if thats your opinion great. To be honest, if I didnt just enjoy talking to you guys here and respected your opinions, I would just ignore the conversation all together...as I dont play chess with pigeons. :P
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Beatdown makes more sense than solo as a descriptor of that strategy. You're focusing on hitting things with your mage, but you may use creatures to support your mage. Solo is not equivalent to direct attacks with your mage. Most solo plays I've seen have revolved around hitting things with their mage, but that doesn't mean that a solo control build is impossible. Solo doesn't imply beatdown to me. It implies not using creatures, which is not what you're actually going for. Buffed mage, equipment, or beatdown strategy make sense as descriptors for what you're talking about, solo mage does not.
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I suppose..... beat down already means a deck type to me.(You want a whole bunch of solid, aggressive creatures, some removal spells and maybe one or two mid-to-late game finishers.)
And buffed/equipment mage really doesn't get the point across that you are being extremely aggressive with mostly your mage, relying on your mage being overly aggressive, and using the mages melee attacks as a win condition.
Really I dont care if its called another name.....I really dont. But I didnt know anyone out there was only using just a mage, and not even one creature....I have yet to see a build titled "Solo Mage" and just have nothing for creatures. I have never seen a build without one creature at all.
I have seen a solo forcemaster build....that had an invisible stalker.
So.... bottom line, I have yet to hear of a build that has no support at all for this so called "Solo Mage" until this thread....but again.......... "Solo Style" "Beatdown" "buff/equip" "Magical unicorn" "Release the Kraken" "Bread n' Butter" I dont really care what people want to call it.......But if you really want a proper name- Its called "Disruptive Aggro", but that still dosnt show that you are using your mage as your beatstick.
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whoa DarthDadaD20 you are coming heavy on this thread here :D you like wrapping things up :D , one could say you have a beat down style xd
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You think?? I hope Im not coming off as a jerk....I dont mean too. It is hard to convey my calm demeanor over the internet!
If you could read all my post in a Morgan Freeman voice.....it would help me out tremendously!
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When reading your threads Darth, I think in the James Earl Jones Voice. Like....
I find your lack of faith disturbing.....
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When reading your threads Darth, I think in the James Earl Jones Voice. Like....
I find your lack of faith disturbing.....
That is the greatest thing I have ever heard! Yes....do that.
Commander, tear this ship apart until you find those plans! And bring me all passengers, I want them ALIVE!
:lol:
And I guess I do wheeze a lot....... :silly:
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Then sometimes I think:
Scar! Brother, help me!
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Darth and Lightseed, you are both only allowed to play Forcemaster from now on, you are hereby banned from playing all other mages.
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I suppose..... beat down already means a deck type to me.(You want a whole bunch of solid, aggressive creatures, some removal spells and maybe one or two mid-to-late game finishers.)
And buffed/equipment mage really doesn't get the point across that you are being extremely aggressive with mostly your mage, relying on your mage being overly aggressive, and using the mages melee attacks as a win condition.
Really I dont care if its called another name.....I really dont. But I didnt know anyone out there was only using just a mage, and not even one creature....I have yet to see a build titled "Solo Mage" and just have nothing for creatures. I have never seen a build without one creature at all.
I have seen a solo forcemaster build....that had an invisible stalker.
So.... bottom line, I have yet to hear of a build that has no support at all for this so called "Solo Mage" until this thread....but again.......... "Solo Style" "Beatdown" "buff/equip" "Magical unicorn" "Release the Kraken" "Bread n' Butter" I dont really care what people want to call it.......But if you really want a proper name- Its called "Disruptive Aggro", but that still dosnt show that you are using your mage as your beatstick.
I've tried solo builds (no creatures) a couple of times. They worked alright primarily because my opponent didn't make effective use of creatures, and I used other things to gain an action advantage. My Priestess, as an example of when I tried a solo build, used a Temple of Light to get additional attacks, and prevent my opponent from attacking me. If I played against a better opponent, I doubt it would have worked well, but I've seen creatureless plays before. I've seen creatureless Warlock, Priestess and Forcemaster.
If you don't think beatdown, buffed mage, or equipment imply being aggressive with your mage, then I don't see why you think solo does this better. Solo doesn't really imply aggression. If you added aggro to the description, that might help. Aggro equipment? Aggro mage? Something that implies that you're mostly relying on your mage being the threat, but doesn't imply that you're not using creatures at all.
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I just thought that was already established in what we were calling the build....not that solo mage implies aggro at all.
I dont care what we call it....... Mage buff Aggro........I just thought solo was an excepted term for the build in which I am speaking of (A aggro mage who spends full actions attacking and using quick actions for equipment/enchantments the majority of the time, one or two creatures and conjurations may not apply) ............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
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Darth and Lightseed, you are both only allowed to play Forcemaster from now on, you are hereby banned from playing all other mages.
My group just decided that I couldnt use the forcemaster for a while! :lol: Im not even joking.....
(I need to post my build, but as it uses cards that SWIM likes to play with......I have to find suitable replacements, and have zero time to do much........dont you look at my number of post and go.."Sure you dont." That in which has no life....)
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I do not consider "big creature builds" (lord of fire etc) to be a "solo" build. Solo would be a forcemaster going straight for his opponent with a Galvitar and a Dancing Scimitar and nothing else.
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Darth and Lightseed, you are both only allowed to play Forcemaster from now on, you are hereby banned from playing all other mages.
My group just decided that I couldnt use the forcemaster for a while! :lol: Im not even joking.....
(I need to post my build, but as it uses cards that are not released yet......I have to find suitable replacements, and have zero time to do much........dont you look at my number of post and go.."Sure you dont." That in which has no life....)
I may have an Idea or two about your build Darth :whistle:
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Well this has wandered way off topic I will make a thread for the Big creature builds and name conventions.
I will post the link to the new thread. This will be all about Defining a build (http://magewars.com/jsite/forum/spellbook-design-and-construction/12096-defining-a-book-build#12096).
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What have you done shad0w!?!?!?! Also...what do you mean ideas for my forcemaster.......?
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Dealings of the forbidden spells Darth. ;)
We must not talk of them in the open. :whistle:
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Well....I thought that much would be fine. You know, I made a perception check and knew thats what you meant....IDK why I asked. Alright...I fixed it.