May 05, 2024, 05:17:23 AM

Author Topic: Clarification of Thorg's Taunt  (Read 11618 times)

wtcannonjr

  • Ambassador of Wychwood
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 811
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • WBC Mage Wars Tournament
Clarification of Thorg's Taunt
« on: September 15, 2013, 08:39:32 AM »
Here is the question that came up in our current game.

Thorg taunts a Holy Avenger that is already in Thorg's zone. The Warlord also has a Dwarf on Guard in the zone.

The priest uses a Guardian Angel to melee attack Thorg which removes his Guard marker.

Question #1-
Since the Holy Avenger can no longer perform the Mandatory Action of Thorg's taunt due to him no longer being an eligible target, can the Holy Avenger now take whatever legal actions he wishes including leaving the current zone?

Question #2-
If the same situation existed, but the Holy Avenger was in an adjacent zone when he started his Action Phase with Thorg's Taunt on him, must he fulfill a portion of the Mandatory Action even though he cannot complete all of its requirements? So, in this situation would the Holy Avenger
(1) need to move into Thorg's zone before it was relieved of the Mandatory Action or
(2) since he can see that the guard prevents him from attacking the creature taunting him, he is free to take any legal action including moving to a different zone?
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
"Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin

ringkichard

  • Flightless Funpire
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2564
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Kich, if you prefer.
    • View Profile
Re: Clarification of Thorg's Taunt
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2013, 11:11:06 AM »
I love this question so much! Here's my stab at it:

The rules for Thorg's Taunt say
Quote from: Codex
If the Taunted creature is in a zone adjacent to Thorg, then it must either move into Thorg's zone or make a ranged attack which targets Thorg, if able. If it is in Thorg's zone, or moves into Thorg's zone, than it must make an attack which targets Thorg, if able.

The FAQ says
Quote from: FAQ
The condition that the action is possible is checked only at the moment that the creature would be choosing its action (or target);

A1. The Avenger can make any legal Action, but it's too late to move twice.
The Taunt rule says that the Holy Avenger must attack Thorg if Thorg is a legal target. Since Thorg isn't a legal target, and there are no other mandatory effects on the Holy Avenger, the Avenger can attack or guard or move as it likes. However, the FAQ says that legality is only checked at the moment the creature chooses its action or target. The core rules say that you must make move actions before other types of actions. So you have to be taking a non move action to check the legality of attacking Thorg, and by that point you can't take your move action. The Avenger can, however, take its quick action to move zones, or take a full action to use a special ability if it has one, since it never moved.

A2. The Avenger moves into Thorg's zone, if able.
We follow the wording of Thorg's taunt ability: "If the Taunted creature is in a zone adjacent to Thorg, then it must either move into Thorg's zone or make a ranged attack which targets Thorg, if able." The Taunted creature has to move into Thorg's zone (assuming it can't make a ranged attack). That rule isn't affected by guard, and the movement is still legal, and it is therefore mandatory.

Now that the Taunted creature is in Thorg's zone, we're back to the situation described in question 1, and the Holy Avenger is free to take any legal action, though it now may be hindered, and can't take full actions since it moved.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 11:32:36 AM by ringkichard »
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Clarification of Thorg's Taunt
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2013, 01:40:27 PM »
I love this question so much! Here's my stab at it:

The rules for Thorg's Taunt say
Quote from: Codex
If the Taunted creature is in a zone adjacent to Thorg, then it must either move into Thorg's zone or make a ranged attack which targets Thorg, if able. If it is in Thorg's zone, or moves into Thorg's zone, than it must make an attack which targets Thorg, if able.

The FAQ says
Quote from: FAQ
The condition that the action is possible is checked only at the moment that the creature would be choosing its action (or target);

A1. The Avenger can make any legal Action, but it's too late to move twice.
The Taunt rule says that the Holy Avenger must attack Thorg if Thorg is a legal target. Since Thorg isn't a legal target, and there are no other mandatory effects on the Holy Avenger, the Avenger can attack or guard or move as it likes. However, the FAQ says that legality is only checked at the moment the creature chooses its action or target. The core rules say that you must make move actions before other types of actions. So you have to be taking a non move action to check the legality of attacking Thorg, and by that point you can't take your move action. The Avenger can, however, take its quick action to move zones, or take a full action to use a special ability if it has one, since it never moved.

A2. The Avenger moves into Thorg's zone, if able.
We follow the wording of Thorg's taunt ability: "If the Taunted creature is in a zone adjacent to Thorg, then it must either move into Thorg's zone or make a ranged attack which targets Thorg, if able." The Taunted creature has to move into Thorg's zone (assuming it can't make a ranged attack). That rule isn't affected by guard, and the movement is still legal, and it is therefore mandatory.

Now that the Taunted creature is in Thorg's zone, we're back to the situation described in question 1, and the Holy Avenger is free to take any legal action, though it now may be hindered, and can't take full actions since it moved.

Nice work Ring
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

Darsul

  • New Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Clarification of Thorg's Taunt
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 12:12:03 PM »
Building off the O.P. , If you taunt a familiar with an attack spell bound to it (exp. Thoughtspore) does it have to attack Thorg using the attack bar printed on it or may it use the spell bound to it?

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Clarification of Thorg's Taunt
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2013, 02:52:57 PM »
Building off the O.P. , If you taunt a familiar with an attack spell bound to it (exp. Thoughtspore) does it have to attack Thorg using the attack bar printed on it or may it use the spell bound to it?
If taunted you may choose either.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

wtcannonjr

  • Ambassador of Wychwood
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 811
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • WBC Mage Wars Tournament
Re: Clarification of Thorg's Taunt
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 05:24:18 PM »
Thanks for the response!

Tom

I love this question so much! Here's my stab at it:

The rules for Thorg's Taunt say
Quote from: Codex
If the Taunted creature is in a zone adjacent to Thorg, then it must either move into Thorg's zone or make a ranged attack which targets Thorg, if able. If it is in Thorg's zone, or moves into Thorg's zone, than it must make an attack which targets Thorg, if able.

The FAQ says
Quote from: FAQ
The condition that the action is possible is checked only at the moment that the creature would be choosing its action (or target);

A1. The Avenger can make any legal Action, but it's too late to move twice.
The Taunt rule says that the Holy Avenger must attack Thorg if Thorg is a legal target. Since Thorg isn't a legal target, and there are no other mandatory effects on the Holy Avenger, the Avenger can attack or guard or move as it likes. However, the FAQ says that legality is only checked at the moment the creature chooses its action or target. The core rules say that you must make move actions before other types of actions. So you have to be taking a non move action to check the legality of attacking Thorg, and by that point you can't take your move action. The Avenger can, however, take its quick action to move zones, or take a full action to use a special ability if it has one, since it never moved.

A2. The Avenger moves into Thorg's zone, if able.
We follow the wording of Thorg's taunt ability: "If the Taunted creature is in a zone adjacent to Thorg, then it must either move into Thorg's zone or make a ranged attack which targets Thorg, if able." The Taunted creature has to move into Thorg's zone (assuming it can't make a ranged attack). That rule isn't affected by guard, and the movement is still legal, and it is therefore mandatory.

Now that the Taunted creature is in Thorg's zone, we're back to the situation described in question 1, and the Holy Avenger is free to take any legal action, though it now may be hindered, and can't take full actions since it moved.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
"Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin

Alex319

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 74
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Clarification of Thorg's Taunt
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 05:58:56 PM »
The responses above are correct that the creature does not need to attack Thorg if it is not able to at the time.

If the Taunted creature is adjacent to Thorg's zone, it is still required to move in if able, even if it cannot legally attack him when it gets there. (This is stated in the rules.) Once it gets there, it could take any legal action if it cannot legally attack Thorg.

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: Clarification of Thorg's Taunt
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2014, 08:04:10 AM »
Building off the O.P. , If you taunt a familiar with an attack spell bound to it (exp. Thoughtspore) does it have to attack Thorg using the attack bar printed on it or may it use the spell bound to it?
If taunted you may choose either.

Sorry to dig this up, but I was searching stuff about Thorg and saw this and want to point out that it is incorrect.

You have to attack with your action (if able to) and an attack spell require to cast a spell (which you can't do) before the attack take place.

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Clarification of Thorg's Taunt
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2014, 10:25:03 AM »
Quote from: Wildhorn
You have to attack with your action (if able to) and an attack spell require to cast a spell (which you can't do) before the attack take place.

An attack spell has to go through the motions of casting the spell before it goes through the motions of making the attack, and this is usually described as being because the attack is the result of the spell. However, according to the rulebook Attack Spells are described as being "both a spell and an attack" and not as a spell that generates an attack. Therefore, choosing to use an attack spell to satisfy a mandatory requirement to make an attack is legal.

What confuses me though is this statement:

Quote from: ringkichard
However, the FAQ says that legality is only checked at the moment the creature chooses its action or target. The core rules say that you must make move actions before other types of actions. So you have to be taking a non move action to check the legality of attacking Thorg, and by that point you can't take your move action.

The FAQ does currently have the line "A creature must perform a mandatory action if it is possible to do so when it chooses what action to perform." When I explain creature actions to people, I do tend to break them down into the steps of Activation, Movement, and then Action, however that isn't really the system in use by the game. It is a simplification and it doesn't work that well with this rule on mandatory actions. Instead, the rules state on page 11 of the English rulebook v3, that creature actions work as follows:
1) Activate the Creature
2) Choose what type of action the creature will take

During step 2, you have 3 options:
1) Move and Quick Action
2) Full Action
3) Do Nothing

If you choose option 1, you would immediately check for whether or not you could perform the mandatory action. If you can not, then you are free to do whatever action you wish, and may still use your move before your action as that was a part of your action choice. This is supported by the wording on page 9 of the English Rulebook v3 which describes movement as an action it's own right.

In the end this can be included with our simplified system by saying you check for mandatory actions immediately after activation. However, if you want to go strictly by the rules as written that say you check when choosing your action, you also have to go by the rules as written that say your pre-action movement is part of your action selection and thus would not be forfeited. Both end up amounting to the same thing though.

wtcannonjr

  • Ambassador of Wychwood
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 811
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • WBC Mage Wars Tournament
Re: Clarification of Thorg's Taunt
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2014, 03:05:05 PM »

The FAQ does currently have the line "A creature must perform a mandatory action if it is possible to do so when it chooses what action to perform." When I explain creature actions to people, I do tend to break them down into the steps of Activation, Movement, and then Action, however that isn't really the system in use by the game. It is a simplification and it doesn't work that well with this rule on mandatory actions. Instead, the rules state on page 11 of the English rulebook v3, that creature actions work as follows:
1) Activate the Creature
2) Choose what type of action the creature will take

During step 2, you have 3 options:
1) Move and Quick Action
2) Full Action
3) Do Nothing


This list of options always bothered me since option 4) Quick Action only without Move does not specifically fit any of these. Is that intentional?

With the current list it appears you must take a Move action in order to perform another Quick Action. Perhaps the intent is that the creature must take a Move action and remain in the same zone in order to perform another Quick Action such as Guard or Quick Attack.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
"Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Clarification of Thorg's Taunt
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2014, 04:32:05 PM »
The rulebook explicitly states that both the movement and quick action parts are optional. Thus, you could move without making any Quick Actions, or you could take a Quick Action without moving. The point though, is that they are all the same option, which upon your selection triggers checking for mandatory actions. If a mandatory action exists, but you are not able to fulfill it, you are then free to carry out the entirety of your selection which includes moving before making a Quick Action if you so desire.