Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Player Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Borg on May 09, 2015, 08:22:23 AM
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I was looking at [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC07] Gurmash, Orc Seargeant[/mwcard] today and came to the same conclusion as before :
- he can't fight AND cast a spell during the same round
- as a Fighter there are better creatures to summon
- to cast Command Incantations he seems like a heavy investment
Wouldn't he be a much more attractive option if he could move, fight or guard AND cast a Command spell in 1 round. Maybe Creature Familiars should get the QUICKCAST Trait.
But I'm going too fast now...
Let me explain my reasoning :
Take for example [mwcard=MWSTX1CKJ02] Wizard's Tower[/mwcard] and [mwcard=DNJ02] Corrosive Orchid[/mwcard]
Two conjurations, not creatures, but it's what they do mechanically that's important here.
Both can be activated before or after a creature activation.
So, mechanically, it's as if these cards give your mage an additional QUICKCAST MARKER each because that's what a Quickcast marker does. It gives you the opportunity to cast a quick spell before or after an activation.
[mwcard=FWQ09] Sectarus, Dark Rune Sword[/mwcard] a Familiar is similar.
If you hit an opposing creature with it, you may play a Curse on that creature just as if you've got an additional Quikcast marker to do that.
Now consider the Familiars [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC07] Gurmash, Orc Seargeant[/mwcard] or [mwcard=MW1C13] Fellella, Pixie Familiar[/mwcard] or [mwcard=FWC16] Thoughtspore[/mwcard]
They can cast a spell as well, but it's not at "Quickcast speed" but at "normal activation speed " meaning you always have to telephone your play in like for instance when you have a Battle Fury on your thoughtspore or a Flank Attack on Gurmash. These types of spells simply don't work very well because they don't have quickcast speed.
Personally, I feel all Creature Familiars should receive the QUICKCAST TRAIT
Definition of Quickcast Trait :
Once per round, before or after any friendly action phase, this creature may cast the spell attached to it.
This does not activate the creature.
Even if the creature was already activated earlier this round, it can still cast its spell.
Use a ready marker to keep track of this ability.
This means :
- the spell attached to a familiar technically can be played like playing a quickcast marker.
eg, cast Battle Fury on your mage right before activating him or
move and attack with Gurmash, then right before your following action, cast Flank Attack on a friendly soldier and attack the same enemy target.
I may be wrong but I feel like Familiars should actually work like that.
Get to move and attack as normal, with their spellcasting ability as an extra quickcast ability.
I'm sure Gurmash, at least, would become a lot more playable this way.
They would probably also be costed a bit more, but that's another debate :)
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You know, this isn't crazy. Wizard's Tower has this ability already, and that unbalances things in Wizard's favor a fair bit. I don't think it's likely that this change would be made, because errata are so rarely issued for any reason other than responding to emergencies, but Gurmash, Fellella, and Thoughtspore do seem like they need something to make them more playable.
Good idea.
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Well actually, the errata would be minimal, I'd say, and not one who's difficult to remember or keep in mind ;)
The change would consist of nothing more than the addition of the word "Quickcast" in the Trait bar.
AW can state which Creature Familiars gain the "Quickcast" Trait and define the trait in the codex.
Maybe add a few errata'd copies of these creatures to the next expansion or put them online for download although
I'm aware they want to keep errata to a very minimum and I support that, but if the suggested change would REALLY make the game better, then it's worth the trouble imho.
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So how does this work with Familiars that are really designed as spell caster such as Fella, Imp Familiar, and Thoughtspore?
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So how does this work with Familiars that are really designed as spell caster such as Fella, Imp Familiar, and Thoughtspore?
Example plays for these familiars :
[mwcard=FWC16] Thoughtspore[/mwcard]
- Before Action : Spore casts Knockdown on Guarding Angel ( thus removing flight, defense and guard ).
- Action : FM uses Galvitar's full action Double strike to hit Angel
- Next action : Spore moves and takes a guard action to hide behind a wall.
- Before Action : Spore casts Battle Fury on your FM.
- Action : FM activates uses Galvitar's full action Double strike + BF.
- Next action : Spore attacks the Vine Marker in his zone
I'm using Knockdown and Battle Fury as examples because these are two Incantations which do not work very well on a Spore, ( BF is telegraphed and knockdown can wear off before you can use its effect )
Currently these effects are only worth playing if your mage plays them himself with the help of his QC.
I think a Familiar should be able to do what a QC marker can do.
[mwcard=MW1C13] Fellella, Pixie Familiar[/mwcard]
- Before Action : Fellella casts Falcon Precision on Knight of Westlock
- Action : Fellella moves and takes up a new position
- Essentially with this change you can play the enchantment before moving Fellella instead of only after moving, allowing her to take more defensive postions, increasing her durability.
- Action : Priest attacks a guarding creature and uses his Brace Yourself during the counterstrike
- After Action : Fellella puts a new Brace Yourself on the Priest
- I'm sure sIKE loves this example :)
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFC11] Sersiryx, Imp Familiar[/mwcard]
- Action : Sersiryx moves and attacks enemy creature
- After Action : Sersiryx casts Flameblast and finishes off enemy creature
- Before Action : Sersiryx casts Flameblast on enemy creature
- Before Action : Warlock casts Flameblast on enemy creature
- Action : Warlock moves and attacks guarding creature
Technically : a Familiar would give you an additional Quickcast Marker.
Thematically and intuitively this makes sense IMO as they are essentially mini-mages and it would make all their stats useful.
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it would be too annoying with attack thoughtspore/imp familiar. they'd to a range 2 attack QC then run away. nothings gets to ranged attack them move away except the mages, and i think the designers want to keep it that way. The incantation bird would be similiarly annoying...qc teleport bird forward, qc dissolve armor via bird, bird runs away 2 zones.
pixie doesnt really need it, since enchantments dont telegraph much since they are hidden and most last longer than a round.
I'd like gurmash to have it, but one spell is not enough reason to make a bunch of errata. Gurmash is good enough...mostly.
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For me the basic 'equation' of the spells casting system works fine.
1. You pay mana and an action to cast a spell.
2. That resulting spell can sometimes result in adding action choices for future rounds. E.g. a creature spell or certain conjurations.
3. The choice of what do with that action is limited by the type of spell. E.g. most creatures allow move, guard and attack actions as options. Some creatures, like Gurmash, give you an additional choice to cast a spell. Note, that Wizard's Tower is less flexible since it has only a single action choice.
I don't find your problem statement to be a problem. You seem to have left out the other actions and combination of actions that Gurmash provides from your comparison with the Wizard Tower. It seems like you want a creature that has the same capabilities as your mage. I.e be able to have two actions. I prefer team play to get that level of effect in the arena.
However, I can see the appeal of having more actions available in a single creature especially with one player in control of them. I think this might fit better as an Archmage ability. E.g. have a creature subtype that is 'apprentice mage' with an effect that limits summoning to some ability of an Archmage. When summoned the new creature receives both types of action markers.
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The incantation bird would be similiarly annoying...qc teleport bird forward, qc dissolve armor via bird, bird runs away 2 zones.
I agree with you there, but rather than dismiss the idea right away, I think what might need to be addressed here is the number of Quickcasts a player can make before and after an action.
Right now, if you were to have a Wizard's Tower and 4 Corrosive Orchid's in play, according to the rules you could activate them all 5 + your QC before taking an action.
If there are more cards like this coming out in future expansions we might run into a balance problem eventually with these unlimited actions.
If the rules would limit a player's actions to a maximum of just ONE QC action before activating AND no more than ONE QC after activation, I think we would see no abuse.
At the same time that would immediately tone Wizard's Tower down a bit because what's putting it a little over the top right now is that you can simply QC it and activate it immediately thereafter. With a rule of just one QC/free action before and after an action, that would balance things nicely imo.
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It seems like you want a creature that has the same capabilities as your mage. I.e be able to have two actions. I prefer team play to get that level of effect in the arena.
Yes, I'd like that, but the main reason is that I'd like all Familiars to able to act at the same speed as the Wizard's Tower, thus being able to play their spellcasting ability as a pre- or post-action spell/ability rather than just a main Action ability.
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I like this idea. It is a rare thing to see a familiar actually in play.
Quick Cast as a trait will probably solve many things and also could make it easier to understand concept of QC when explaining the game to new players.
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It seems like you want a creature that has the same capabilities as your mage. I.e be able to have two actions. I prefer team play to get that level of effect in the arena.
Yes, I'd like that, but the main reason is that I'd like all Familiars to able to act at the same speed as the Wizard's Tower, thus being able to play their spellcasting ability as a pre- or post-action spell/ability rather than just a main Action ability.
Well a simpler house rule you could test would be to place an action marker on Wizard Tower when cast. Require Wizard Tower to use a full action to cast it's spell. Presto - Familiars act at same speed.
As I said before I like the current level of differences between creatures, Familiars, and mages.
If you implement your idea I would just add a quickcast action marker to the Familiar when summoned.
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how about 'quick cast trait':
'This unit may spend its action marker to cast attached spell before or after friendly creature activation'
Would mean no running. You could use it as a normal action marker or use it like a wizard tower.
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how about 'quick cast trait':
'This unit may spend its action marker to cast attached spell before or after friendly creature activation'
Would mean no running. You could use it as a normal action marker or use it like a wizard tower.
I considered that as well but that would still leave a Familiar like Gurmash largely useless as his attack line still goes to waste.
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Weirdly, the biggest problem with this idea is it might make [mwcard=MW1C21]Huginn, Raven Familiar[/mwcard] too powerful.
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Well actually, the errata would be minimal, I'd say, and not one who's difficult to remember or keep in mind ;)
The change would consist of nothing more than the addition of the word "Quickcast" in the Trait bar.
I beg to disagree. Not only would we need to change all or most familiar's Trait bar, but we would also have to change their mana cost or their level. Basically, you are giving yourself an additional free action and that comes at a cost.
Here is a case scenario:
Before Action: Gurmash casts Power Strike on Warlord
Before Action: Warlord Quickcasts Piercing Strike or another Power Strike on himself
Action: Attack with Warlord
After Action: Attack with Dancing Scimitar
Ouch! And that only cost 2 mana if we include the discount from Gurmash's channeling and a ring of command.
And then, after, you can still make a 3 dice attack + bleed with Gurmash...
Isn't that a little overpowered? (I'm pretty sure we can find other examples like that.)
Granted, you could pull that combo off with the actual rules if you get your timing right, but you have to work and prepare for it or the opponent gets to avoid the attack.
And what about Huggin? If every familiar gets it, than Huggin should too. Then you can make him read a FD enchantment before seeking dispel it the same turn and still use your mage's quickcast phase for something else later. Sounds quite powerful to me, even if you do control the number of quickcasts before or after any turn.
Bottom line, actions are one of the most, if not THE most important thing you can get in Mage Wars. Juggling with them might easily lead to some broken rules.
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I was looking at [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC07] Gurmash, Orc Seargeant[/mwcard] today and came to the same conclusion as before :
- he can't fight AND cast a spell during the same round
- as a Fighter there are better creatures to summon
- to cast Command Incantations he seems like a heavy investment
Wouldn't he be a much more attractive option if he could move, fight or guard AND cast a Command spell in 1 round. Maybe Creature Familiars should get the QUICKCAST Trait.
I do not agree that Gurmash doesn't work well for the reasons you mentioned (must choose to cast or attack). Instead, I look at this as a benefit... he is flexible. If he needs to attack a creature to use a Flank Attack bonus, for example, he can do that. If his Piercing Strike spell will be more useful in the situation, he can cast it instead. Also, he channels mana... none of those better-attacking creatures do that.
Yes, there are better creatures to use to attack with... but they do not give you the ability to channel or the option to cast spells instead of attack when that becomes the better option.
Take for example [mwcard=MWSTX1CKJ02] Wizard's Tower[/mwcard] and [mwcard=DNJ02] Corrosive Orchid[/mwcard]
Two conjurations, not creatures, but it's what they do mechanically that's important here.
Both can be activated before or after a creature activation.
So, mechanically, it's as if these cards give your mage an additional QUICKCAST MARKER each because that's what a Quickcast marker does. It gives you the opportunity to cast a quick spell before or after an activation.
I disagree that this is mechanically the same as the Wizard Tower, etc. The Wizard Tower can only do one thing... cast the attached spell. Familiar creatures can move and/or cast their attached spells. The difference between a familiar creature and the Wizard Tower simply is that the Wizard Tower can combo with a creature's action. This seems (to me, anyway) to compensate for its immobility.
If you want to say that there should be a limit on the number of instant-type actions that conjurations, etc. can take place before the opponent can act, then I have no objection. However, I do have to disagree with your premise here.