Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Lord Strife on November 26, 2012, 06:42:01 PM
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Let's say that an evil warlock smacks my wizard that had the forsight to cast reverse attack upon himself.
Now the warlock has his armor with a damage barrier on. When he targets himself does the barrier trigger?
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He isn't really targeting himself, you take control of the attack, so when his damage barrier goes off it would hit you. Which is still usually better than just letting the attack hit.
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Ha! That's awesome! This is the first time I have heard about a Reverse Attack with a Damage Barrier!
Yes, his own Damage Barrier would trigger!
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So does the damage barrier damage the wizard or the warlock?
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The Warlock.
The melee attack has been bounced and redirected to the Warlock, and starts a new attack sequence, with the Warlock being the attacker, and the target of his own attack. When the Damage Barrier step is reached, it is followed as per normal where the attacker receives a Damage Barrier attack from the target.
The Warlock is going to hate this, but the Wizard is going to feel he really got his mana's worth on the Reverse Attack!
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@Arcanus
Damage Barrier hitting it's owner is totally nonsense...
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@Arcanus
Damage Barrier hitting it's owner is totally nonsense...
Here is the rules for Damage Barrier
Damage Barriers
A damage barrier is a special kind of protection that gives a defender a “free” attack against every attacker that makes a successful melee attack against it. This attack occurs automatically during the damage Barrier Step of the attack. The defender may not use a damage barrier unless
the melee attack was “successful”. If all of the attacks were avoided by Defenses, or “missed”
because of being Dazed, then the damage barrier cannot be used. However, if at least one melee
attack rolled dice during the Roll Dice Step, then the damage barrier may be used. A damage barrier can attack each attacker once each round. If an attacker gets multiple strikes, the damage barrier only gets to attack once after all the attacks are complete.
Note: A damage barrier works only against melee
attacks. A creature that is the target of a ranged attack or other non-melee attack does not get to use its damage barrier. Damage barrier attacks always have the Unavoidable trait, and cannot be avoided by a Defense.
Because this attack from the barrier is automatic the Warlock can not choose to turn it off and therefore gets hit by it.
I hope that helps.
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Thanks Shadow.
Krj, I am going to agree with you that it seems silly. As much as possible we have made Mage Wars to function as realistically as possible, following laws of physics,and as if magic were real. In this manner it also makes the game intuitive and easier to learn; Things work like you think they should.
However, we have also tried to keep the game streamlined and simplified too, and have avoided adding extra rules for rare situations in order to maintain realism. The situation with the damage barrier is rare, and our decision was to let it function without any special additional rules.
However, that being said, we could easily errata Damage Barriers, and add this rule: A Damage Barrier has no effect if both the attack source and its target are the same object. I'd like to get some feedback from players and the team on this first. We really do listen and care about player input! :) Thanks.
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For me, it depends on, how does Reverse Attack work ("in real life"). If it is force field that under the preasurre of an attack directs it (preasure) to the attacker, damage barrier should not work.
But if in addition to that, that forcefield, is giving feedabck to the attacker (attacker feels his own armor etc. with his sword), damage barriers should work.
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I like Arcanus's explanation. I can see this as creating a feedback loop affecting the controller of the damage barrier. I would rather it not get the errata.
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thanks for concern. i think i understand why DB will hit it's owner according to rules.
X - attacker / has Damage Barrier
Y - defender/ X's enemy / has Reverse Attack
X makes melee attack against Y
codex (last pages in roolbook) says:
Damage Barrier
A damage barrier surrounds an object and makes an
automatic attack against each enemy which makes
a melee attack against the object it surrounds.
so X is surrounded by the damage barrier which will do automatic attack against X's enemy (Y) if Y makes melee attack. And only reason Y isn't hit by DB is that the rules didn't say that he becomes an attacker after using RA. Rules only says he became a controller of the attack.[strike] I think it's not exactly how it should be. If i control attack and reverse it to my opponent i should be an attacker from that moment.[/strike]
hmm.... actually i've changed my mind :D that's funny. i tried to imagine that situation, and it's not that silly as i thought. just because DB work for melee attack only. So X try to hit Y with for example sword but it's reversed against him and he hits himself. DB doesn't have it's own intelligence and hit back creature which attacked object which DB is defending. in that situation it's same creature :D
before i always was imaging some thunderbolts flying from X to Y than reverse from Y to X, and that's why i
rather treat Y an a new attacker. I feel calm now :)
thanks a lot for explanation.
PS.
what would happen if X also had Reverse Attack?
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Reverse Attack says you become the controller of that attack.
Warlock attacks Wizard.
Wizard reveals Reverse Attack and is now the attacker, canceling Warlocks attack, during step 2.
We now do a new attack order with the Wizard attacking the Warlock.
Wizard attacks Warlock and deals damage.
Warlocks damage barrier goes off against the attacker, which would now be the Wizard as Reverse Attack states, and damages the Wizard.
Now that the Wizards attack is done we move back to finish the Warlocks attack.
The attack being avoided during the Avoid Attack step, we now move to Step 5, as per page 27 of the rule book.
With no Additional Strikes, no damage barrier to go off on the Wizard, and no Counterstrike, the attacks ends.
Reverse Attack avoids the current attack and, all during Avoid Attack Step 2, does a complete Attack Order before resuming the original attack.
If it weren't for the sentence that says You become the controller of that attack, I could see how you might be attacking yourself when your target reveals Reverse Attack. I may also not be understanding what you mean by "the controller", I don't know how you can control an attack and not be attacking.
Here is the full Reverse Attack text:
When this creature is attacked, you must reveal Reverse Attack during the Avoid Attack Step. Redirect the attack back to the attacker, who now becomes the target of that attack. You become the controller of that attack. Then, destroy Reverse Attack. If the attack is Unavoidable, destroy Reverse Attack without effect.
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You become the controller of the attack but the source of the attack is still the Warlock.
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Wait. The source of the attack is still the Warlock.
So does the damage barrier from the Warlock's armour hurt himself?
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This is from earlier in the thread.
The Warlock.
The melee attack has been bounced and redirected to the Warlock, and starts a new attack sequence, with the Warlock being the attacker, and the target of his own attack. When the Damage Barrier step is reached, it is followed as per normal where the attacker receives a Damage Barrier attack from the target.
The Warlock is going to hate this, but the Wizard is going to feel he really got his mana's worth on the Reverse Attack!
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Reverse Attack says you become the controller of that attack.
I vote for Drealin. I also read clearly "You become the controller".
Since the wizard is attacking Warlock, wizard will get hit by DB.
However:
Some scenerios in my head (realistic feel):
1) Wizard would jump at Warlock (melee). As he comes close he gets hit by the damage barrier and suffer damage.
2) Warlock is going to hit Wizard. In my head I see a Warlock running with his lash at
the Wizard. As he pulls his lash the Wizard cast his spell to make the lash backfire in the Warlocks face.
In my view they don't get close to each other and DB would not trigger.
3) Warlock is going at Wizard with a staf, at which point would the wizard cast his spell?
From the moment the Warlock starts running at him? Too far away for DB
Just befor Impact? In range for DB
(I see DB as kind of aura near the body of the protected one)
No real conclusion possible, they all have a realistic feel.
Point of Logic.
Shad0w rules that the Warlock is still the source of the attack.
DB would only trigger when an enemy would melee attack.
If Warlock would still be the source of the attack, he attacks himself. Or friendly fire.
Enemy = non - friendly
Thus, Warlock is not an enemy, thus DB would not trigger.
Consequence:
All friendly creatures (non - enemy) who attack their friendly mage, would not suffer
DB if he has one, because they are not enemies.
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Mathias has the most compelling argument so far, and I agree with him. a damage barrier only works against enemy attacks the warlock is not an enemy to himself.
Hedge
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I've read the rules again in full.
Somewhere in the full rules you can read: may do a free attack.
So it is optional.
In the side bar the word "can" do a free attack.
Both "may" and "can" are not the same as "must" and the mage has a choise to
use his DB. In this case the Warlock wil not trigger the DB likewise :)
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Point of Logic.
Shad0w rules that the Warlock is still the source of the attack.
DB would only trigger when an enemy would melee attack.
If Warlock would still be the source of the attack, he attacks himself. Or friendly fire.
Enemy = non - friendly
Thus, Warlock is not an enemy, thus DB would not trigger.
Consequence:
All friendly creatures (non - enemy) who attack their friendly mage, would not suffer
DB if he has one, because they are not enemies.
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If you look at what I post I never state that it must be an enemy attack and I also state that the attack is automatic. When you look in to rule in the codex it does state enemy but when you look at the full rules section it does not. I also did not use may in my post. Because when the updated rules are posted the plan was to change this (I have not heard word when we will get the update rules out. Kind of busy finishing the FM vs the Warlord set ). I was basing my ruling off the newer cleaner wording that should be in place. If you need to look at what I posted it is in the spoiler below.
[spoiler]
Here is the rules for Damage Barrier
Damage Barriers
A damage barrier is a special kind of protection that gives a defender a “free” attack against every attacker that makes a successful melee attack against it. This attack occurs automatically during the damage Barrier Step of the attack. The defender may not use a damage barrier unless
the melee attack was “successful”. If all of the attacks were avoided by Defenses, or “missed”
because of being Dazed, then the damage barrier cannot be used. However, if at least one melee
attack rolled dice during the Roll Dice Step, then the damage barrier may be used. A damage barrier can attack each attacker once each round. If an attacker gets multiple strikes, the damage barrier only gets to attack once after all the attacks are complete.
Note: A damage barrier works only against melee
attacks. A creature that is the target of a ranged attack or other non-melee attack does not get to use its damage barrier. Damage barrier attacks always have the Unavoidable trait, and cannot be avoided by a Defense.
Because this attack from the barrier is automatic the Warlock can not choose to turn it off and therefore gets hit by it.[/spoiler]
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Thx Shad0w,
Do note this rule (in spoiler) still sounds conflicting:
1) A DB is an automatic attack
2) "if at least one melee attack rolled dice during the Roll Dice Step, then the damage barrier may be used"
If the attack is mandatory, "may" has to be preplaced with "must".
May does gives one a choice, which it has not according to the rules.
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Oooh, nice catch Mathias.
Arcanus? Does the "may" in this situation stop the "automatic" attack?
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Another instance of conflicting text. Thanks for pointing this out. Even after several rereads I missed it.
"This attack occurs automatically during the damage Barrier Step of the attack. "
"However, if at least one melee attack rolled dice during the Roll Dice Step, then the damage barrier may be used. "
That was the most current wording I had at the time I post. I think I had read this 3-4 times and never noticed those conflicting lines. That is what I get for looking over too many keyword rules this past week. think at that point I will leave this for Bryan to rule on.