Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: BR3AKR on January 21, 2013, 11:05:46 AM
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I've been working on some openers for the Beastmaster. I understand that there are spells like mana siphon, and drain mana - however I feel like that shouldn't stop you from having an opening plan.
My preferred method of play is to be a bit conservative and then attack with a few mid-large creatures buffed with enchants. However, I can't be greedy if my opponent is being aggressive so I like to give my opponent the initiative to get a sense of what they're up to and adjust accordingly. If I'm playing against a warlock who throws down a forward forge, or a beastmaster who puts on a ring of beasts and throws down a creature turn one, I know it's fightin' time and switch into my aggressive openers.
Here is what I have:
Format is my mana, hyphen, mana on my lair.
Slow - My default opener. I'll play this way if my opponent appears to be playing the long game.
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19-00 Turn 01
04-00 Lair
00-00 Harmonize (on lair)
09-03 Turn 02
04-03 Mana Flower
02-03 Nullify
12-06 Turn 03
06-00 Timber Wolf (Pet)
01-00 Mana Flower
12-03 Turn 04
09-00 Thunderrift Falcon
07-00 Tooth & Nail
00-00 Staff of Beasts
Slow into Aggro - If my opponent appeared to be playing a long game, then turned on the heat quickly
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19-00 Turn 01
04-00 Lair
00-00 Harmonize (on lair)
09-03 Turn 02
04-03 Mana Flower
02-03 Nullify (Not vs Beastmaster)
12-06 Turn 03
06-00 Timber Wolf (Pet)
04-00 Ring of Beasts
00-00 Bitterwood Fox
10-03 Turn 04
08-00 Bitterwood Fox
04-00 Bitterwood Fox
02-00 Enchantment
12-03 Turn 05
00-00 Redclaw
Aggro - If my opponent goes crazy aggressive and I need to keep up.
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19-00 Turn 01
17-00 Ring of Beasts
13-00 Bitterwood Fox
22-00 Turn 02
07-00 Redclaw
03-00 Rouse the Beast (if in range)
12-00 Turn 03
01-00 Timber Wolf (Pet)
01-00 None
10-00 Turn 04
06-00 Bitterwood Fox (or heal)
02-00 Bitterwood Fox
11-00 Turn 05
04-00 Tooth & Nail
02-00 Enchantment
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whats the purpose of the nullify?
it is my experience that this is the best mana based opening for the beast master.
19-00 Turn 01
14-00 Mana Flower
09-00 Mana Flower
20-00 Turn 02
05-00 Lair
01-00 Harmonize
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Actually, the better start is like this:
Turn 1: 19 mana to start. Lair (15) + Harmonize on Lair (4) = 19
Turn 2: 9 mana to start (3 on Lair). Ring of Beasts (2) + Mana Flower (5) + Fox from Lair (2 from BM)
Turn 3: 10 mana to start (3 on Lair). Mana Flower (5) + Fox (4)
In the long run you end up generating the exact same amount of mana that your opening does because the Lair produces 2 mana a turn so getting it out first ends up equalling out the mana gain from the double mana flower opening. With your opener you've generated 5 extra mana on turn three, and with mine you've generated the exact same amount but you have a creature out on turn 2 instead of turn 3 which makes it superior IMO.
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I believe that the ring of beasts would be better generally speaking than the nullify. In the event of some serious show of aggression from my opponent I might throw it down.
I don't use the lair on the second turn so that I can get the timber wolf out as a pet on the third turn. I'd take one timber wolf as a pet over two foxes.
A turn two creature is nice, however in my experience aggression doesn't come that quickly, and if it does that's what the other two builds are for. Spending the mana to get my pet out now, I feel will allow me to be more reactive later as finding an opportunity to drop 12 mana down the road is a little tougher.
Thoughts? Am I crazy?
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Actually, the better start is like this:
Turn 1: 19 mana to start. Lair (15) + Harmonize on Lair (4) = 19
Turn 2: 9 mana to start (3 on Lair). Ring of Beasts (2) + Mana Flower (5) + Fox from Lair (2 from BM)
Turn 3: 10 mana to start (3 on Lair). Mana Flower (5) + Fox (4)
In the long run you end up generating the exact same amount of mana that your opening does because the Lair produces 2 mana a turn so getting it out first ends up equalling out the mana gain from the double mana flower opening. With your opener you've generated 5 extra mana on turn three, and with mine you've generated the exact same amount but you have a creature out on turn 2 instead of turn 3 which makes it superior IMO.
the key difference between our openers is that mine is more free form. you can take that opening and go in any direction you want with it. yours sacrifices this freedom to get a few early creature out. both have their purposes.
my opener works best with the first opener he posted. your works better with the second.
I believe that the ring of beasts would be better generally speaking than the nullify. In the event of some serious show of aggression from my opponent I might throw it down.
I don't use the lair on the second turn so that I can get the timber wolf out as a pet on the third turn. I'd take one timber wolf as a pet over two foxes.
A turn two creature is nice, however in my experience aggression doesn't come that quickly, and if it does that's what the other two builds are for. Spending the mana to get my pet out now, I feel will allow me to be more reactive later as finding an opportunity to drop 12 mana down the road is a little tougher.
Thoughts? Am I crazy?
ring in place of nullify is going to be the better choice.
Lair on turn 1 is only good if your going to use it on turn 2. if your not your better off going with the opener i posted.
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it is my experience that this is the best mana based opening for the beast master.
19-00 Turn 01
14-00 Mana Flower
09-00 Mana Flower
20-00 Turn 02
05-00 Lair
01-00 Harmonize
I also like this opener better.
Just because of the lenght it gives. Casting Lair on T01 means that you'll have it on one of the side rows of the Arena while in T02 you can cast it two spaces away from the start point, 1 space inside in the mid-row. That would give a 1 turn less of movement to your beasts.
Also, this gives a chance to cast a creature near the Flowers if they need protection.
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the key difference between our openers is that mine is more free form. you can take that opening and go in any direction you want with it. yours sacrifices this freedom to get a few early creature out. both have their purposes.
my opener works best with the first opener he posted. your works better with the second.
I'm not sure that's correct. To me, if you are putting a Lair in play you are not going "free form" or looking for versatility. You are looking for creatures. To me, a "free form" build would be getting out the double Mana Flowers on turn one then on turn two going into some sort of Enchantment on your mage, or piece of equipment, and/or summoning a Pet (or summoning the Pixie Familiar). Then you could "go in any direction". But honestly, if you put out a Lair you are clearly heavily investing yourself towards creature generation due to the massive mana cost of the Lair (plus the Harmonize).
Since I saw you going with a Lair build, I was just pointing out that going Lair first turn with Harmonize is superior since you can get out a second turn creature and you are generating the same extra mana that the double Mana Flower start does. If you aren't going after creatures...why would you play a Lair? And if you are going after creatures then getting them out faster seems to make more sense than getting them out slower.
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it is my experience that this is the best mana based opening for the beast master.
19-00 Turn 01
14-00 Mana Flower
09-00 Mana Flower
20-00 Turn 02
05-00 Lair
01-00 Harmonize
I also like this opener better.
Just because of the lenght it gives. Casting Lair on T01 means that you'll have it on one of the side rows of the Arena while in T02 you can cast it two spaces away from the start point, 1 space inside in the mid-row. That would give a 1 turn less of movement to your beasts.
Also, this gives a chance to cast a creature near the Flowers if they need protection.
A first turn Lair can go in the Near Center zone, which is close enough unless your opponent is turtling. I always go with Fast creatures initially anyway to get to the opponent quickly even if they are turtling.
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I like to start with a slightly more aggressive opener.
Round 1 - 19 Mana
Mana Flower - 14 Mana
Ring of Beasts - 12 Mana
Round 2 - 22 Mana
Steelclaw Grizzly, Pet - 1 Mana
I find this puts people back on their heals a bit, since they're expecting a few weak creatures early, maybe a spawn point. The next few rounds all depend on what the other player has been up to. If he's within range I might throw down a Charge and a Battle Fury, start smacking him around early. If he has sent some weaker creatures after me, I might just smack them around while I build up my conjuration base. Or I might follow it up with a couple rounds of double Bitterwood Fox summons.
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I like to start with a slightly more aggressive opener.
Round 1 - 19 Mana
Mana Flower - 14 Mana
Ring of Beasts - 12 Mana
Round 2 - 22 Mana
Steelclaw Grizzly, Pet - 1 Mana
I find this puts people back on their heals a bit, since they're expecting a few weak creatures early, maybe a spawn point. The next few rounds all depend on what the other player has been up to. If he's within range I might throw down a Charge and a Battle Fury, start smacking him around early. If he has sent some weaker creatures after me, I might just smack them around while I build up my conjuration base. Or I might follow it up with a couple rounds of double Bitterwood Fox summons.
Yeah, this was more like what I was talking about if you really want a "free form" build that can go in any direction. Personally I would still go with the double Mana Flower first turn then Ring of Beasts and Steelclaw on second and not make him a Pet. You just have a more solid base to work with for future turns.
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I like to start with a slightly more aggressive opener.
Round 1 - 19 Mana
Mana Flower - 14 Mana
Ring of Beasts - 12 Mana
Round 2 - 22 Mana
Steelclaw Grizzly, Pet - 1 Mana
I find this puts people back on their heals a bit, since they're expecting a few weak creatures early, maybe a spawn point. The next few rounds all depend on what the other player has been up to. If he's within range I might throw down a Charge and a Battle Fury, start smacking him around early. If he has sent some weaker creatures after me, I might just smack them around while I build up my conjuration base. Or I might follow it up with a couple rounds of double Bitterwood Fox summons.
Yeah, this was more like what I was talking about if you really want a "free form" build that can go in any direction. Personally I would still go with the double Mana Flower first turn then Ring of Beasts and Steelclaw on second and not make him a Pet. You just have a more solid base to work with for future turns.
i feel this one is difficult as it is really hard to dismiss the power of a pet grizzly. if i wasnt going to pet the grizzly i feel like it would be better to just ring + grizzly turn 1 so you can get him in your opponents face that much sooner. from their you can either support the bear running on low cost spells so the lack of mana foundation wont hurt that bad or you can sit back and build up your mana base.
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I like to start with a slightly more aggressive opener.
Round 1 - 19 Mana
Mana Flower - 14 Mana
Ring of Beasts - 12 Mana
Round 2 - 22 Mana
Steelclaw Grizzly, Pet - 1 Mana
I find this puts people back on their heals a bit, since they're expecting a few weak creatures early, maybe a spawn point. The next few rounds all depend on what the other player has been up to. If he's within range I might throw down a Charge and a Battle Fury, start smacking him around early. If he has sent some weaker creatures after me, I might just smack them around while I build up my conjuration base. Or I might follow it up with a couple rounds of double Bitterwood Fox summons.
Yeah, this was more like what I was talking about if you really want a "free form" build that can go in any direction. Personally I would still go with the double Mana Flower first turn then Ring of Beasts and Steelclaw on second and not make him a Pet. You just have a more solid base to work with for future turns.
i feel this one is difficult as it is really hard to dismiss the power of a pet grizzly. if i wasnt going to pet the grizzly i feel like it would be better to just ring + grizzly turn 1 so you can get him in your opponents face that much sooner. from their you can either support the bear running on low cost spells so the lack of mana foundation wont hurt that bad or you can sit back and build up your mana base.
Well, IMO, if you are going to go with mana generators, you need to get them out as fast as possible. Mana Crystals/Flowers already need five turns in order to break even on their cost and don't start making you mana until the sixth turn. The faster you get them out, the faster you get a ROI and the more mana they will make you over the course of the game. Going with double Mana Flower on turn one then Grizzly on turn two is still really aggressive and scary. Personally, I like to make a small critter my Pet, like a Fox or Falcon. It's cheaper mana wise and makes the weenie more of a threat. I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket. The "super grizzly" strategy is just begging to be hit by a Sleep or Tanglevine or something like that. I prefer to split my offense up into different sources to make them harder to counter.
Just my opinion though and the beauty of this game is how diverse the strategies are. :)
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The "super grizzly" strategy is just begging to be hit by a Sleep or Tanglevine or something like that. I prefer to split my offense up into different sources to make them harder to counter.
Just my opinion though and the beauty of this game is how diverse the strategies are. :)
I agree, the pet grizzly definitely has a big "kill me" sign on him from the moment he gets played. Personally though, I feel like that gives me a slight advantage, as it makes predicting my opponents moves a little easier. I know if I send my big hulking grizzly straight for him, he's going to do his best to neutralize the threat. Now he's reacting to me, and I have an idea of what his next move will be because of it.
But like you said, it's one opinion versus another, and every game is different. I just really enjoy watching that grizzly tear things up :)
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Jim, what has been your experience with opening a turn 2 grizzly? What kind of responses have you seen from your opponent? I feel like there are some really strong spells for relatively cheap that quickly stop single-badasses like the Grizzly? Not being critical, just curious.
As for the 2 mana flower opener, Koz - I think you may be right about versatility, and I've run out of reasons for liking mine better so I'm changing it.
I'm now thinking my opener looks like this:
19-00 Turn 01
14-00 Mana Flower
09-00 Mana Flower
20-00 Turn 02
05-00 Lair
01-00 Harmonize
12-03 Turn 03
03-00 Timber Wolf (Pet)
01-00 Enchantment
01-00 (None - Fast Cast)
I still end up with the same amount of mana, and a timber wolf as a pet (which I love, so strong - compare the power of him versus Red Claw based on mana). Then, on turn three instead of doing the nullify on turn two I have the opportunity to make a decision on what kind of enchantment I'd like depending on what my opponent is doing. Great!
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Jim, what has been your experience with opening a turn 2 grizzly? What kind of responses have you seen from your opponent? I feel like there are some really strong spells for relatively cheap that quickly stop single-badasses like the Grizzly? Not being critical, just curious.
The turn 2 grizzly has worked out pretty well for me. Unfortunately, I can't claim that as an indication of a sound strategy, as most of my games have been fairly casual, with me either teaching someone new the game, or trying to avoid overwhelming my opponent with the rules (most of the people that I play with aren't really into this sort of game, unfortunately). The closest I've come to a competitive game was against my roommate. He was playing as the Warlock and tried to counter my big scary bear first with a Dark Pact Slayer Blood Reaper, then with Adramelech, the Fire Lord. I Tanglevined his Blood Reaper and then Force Held the Fire Lord. That made me feel pretty good :) I then proceeded to wail on his Warlock a few more turns while I saved up to bring out Tarok and put Eagle Wings on my bear. Then once he teleported away from my bear, I let the Fire Lord free, and then tore him apart. In conclusion, I obviously don't have a lot of different games that I can draw from for backing this strategy up, I just feel that as long as I have sufficient counters to my opponents counters, bringing out the grizzly early is a great way to put the opponent on the defensive and allow me to control the pace of the game. In theory.
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Jim, what has been your experience with opening a turn 2 grizzly? What kind of responses have you seen from your opponent? I feel like there are some really strong spells for relatively cheap that quickly stop single-badasses like the Grizzly? Not being critical, just curious.
As for the 2 mana flower opener, Koz - I think you may be right about versatility, and I've run out of reasons for liking mine better so I'm changing it.
I'm now thinking my opener looks like this:
19-00 Turn 01
14-00 Mana Flower
09-00 Mana Flower
20-00 Turn 02
05-00 Lair
01-00 Harmonize
12-03 Turn 03
03-00 Timber Wolf (Pet)
01-00 Enchantment
01-00 (None - Fast Cast)
I still end up with the same amount of mana, and a timber wolf as a pet (which I love, so strong - compare the power of him versus Red Claw based on mana). Then, on turn three instead of doing the nullify on turn two I have the opportunity to make a decision on what kind of enchantment I'd like depending on what my opponent is doing. Great!
ran this opener last night. worked wonderfully. had a warlock try to get up in my face turn 2. dropped the pet wolf on turn 3 and he spent the rest of the game unsuccessfully trying to get away from the both of us. i spent post turn 3 casting 1 equipment then melee attacking. on turn 3 i cast gauntlet's of strength instead of the enchantment. was a really awesome psuedo-solo opening.
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So I finally had a chance to play again, and I tried the round 2 super grizzly strategy, and I have to say, I would not recommend it. The grizzly didn't get force held or put to sleep, and I was able to run him right up to the priestess and start wailing on her.
Except she had Deflection Bracers, so I kept missing. And she used Pillar of Light and managed to stun my bear after I played a Battle Fury on him. It took her several rounds to deal with the grizzly, but she spent those rounds summoning creatures from her Temple, while I spent those turns trying to actually hit her with the grizzly. I ended up with no spawnpoint and a significant mana deficit. She ended up with a Unicorn, Brogan Bloodstone, a Royal Archer, and two Clerics. When my bear finally bit the dust I was sitting two zones away with only Fellela to protect me.
The lesson to take away from this is don't start the game by bringing yourself down to zero mana. It puts you in a bad spot.
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So I finally had a chance to play again, and I tried the round 2 super grizzly strategy, and I have to say, I would not recommend it. The grizzly didn't get force held or put to sleep, and I was able to run him right up to the priestess and start wailing on her.
Except she had Deflection Bracers, so I kept missing. And she used Pillar of Light and managed to stun my bear after I played a Battle Fury on him. It took her several rounds to deal with the grizzly, but she spent those rounds summoning creatures from her Temple, while I spent those turns trying to actually hit her with the grizzly. I ended up with no spawnpoint and a significant mana deficit. She ended up with a Unicorn, Brogan Bloodstone, a Royal Archer, and two Clerics. When my bear finally bit the dust I was sitting two zones away with only Fellela to protect me.
The lesson to take away from this is don't start the game by bringing yourself down to zero mana. It puts you in a bad spot.
I'm certainly not going to argue with your conclusion.
Its hard to tell by your write up but it sounds like Lady Luck didn't smile on you either. Although once again it's hard to tell from your write up you also make it sound like your opponent may have out maneuvered you on the battlefield too. If that is the case it sounds like you just had a bad game. Change a few tactical decisions, manage your mana better and you might be able to get by with some tweaks instead of a total rewrite.
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I would hate to admit to being outmaneuvered, but I will say two things: 1) Lady Luck was indeed unkind for the first 5 rounds or so. 2) I did expend too great an effort trying to make the bear tank "work". Should have tried to get something else going while he distracted her.
Things I learned:
1) If you do go this route, let the bear take care of himself. No need to get greedy and cast Bear's Strength or Battle Fury or other similar spells on him. He's big enough as is, so focus on something else.
2) Do NOT go solo big creature against a Priestess. She has way too much crowd control, and you will spend most of that creatures actions rolling against dazes or removing stuns. Against the Priestess, I'd take quantity over quality.
3) Try to avoid getting down below 5 mana if you don't have a spawnpoint out. After I got my Bear out, I realized I would be very mana limited for a while, especially if I tried to cast two spells a round. As a result, it took me far too long to get a spawnpoint out, and I just couldn't catch up to my opponent in terms of creature strength.
Perhaps one of you better, more experienced players will try this and make it work, but I'm going to stay away from the Super Grizzly opener for a while.
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I would hate to admit to being outmaneuvered, but I will say two things: 1) Lady Luck was indeed unkind for the first 5 rounds or so. 2) I did expend too great an effort trying to make the bear tank "work". Should have tried to get something else going while he distracted her.
Things I learned:
1) If you do go this route, let the bear take care of himself. No need to get greedy and cast Bear's Strength or Battle Fury or other similar spells on him. He's big enough as is, so focus on something else.
2) Do NOT go solo big creature against a Priestess. She has way too much crowd control, and you will spend most of that creatures actions rolling against dazes or removing stuns. Against the Priestess, I'd take quantity over quality.
3) Try to avoid getting down below 5 mana if you don't have a spawnpoint out. After I got my Bear out, I realized I would be very mana limited for a while, especially if I tried to cast two spells a round. As a result, it took me far too long to get a spawnpoint out, and I just couldn't catch up to my opponent in terms of creature strength.
Perhaps one of you better, more experienced players will try this and make it work, but I'm going to stay away from the Super Grizzly opener for a while.
All three points sound good.
Did your Beastmaster suit up and fight along side his bear? It sounds like the answer would no because he was supporting the bear. The reason I'm asking is I was thinking of running the Beastmaster my next game with the path to victory being a sustained assault with my Beastmaster and his pet. I was thinking of using a timber wolf instead of the bear. I was also going to equip the staff of the beast and gauntlets of strength. I figured I would be launching my main assault a couple of turns later than normal so I thought I would cast a couple of early level 1 creatures to harass my opponent and give him something to play with while I was suiting up. Do you have any insight into the viability of this strategy.
Oh and by the way, I meant no offense with the out maneuvered comment. I can tell you I've been out maneuvered before and I learned more from that than any 3 victories combined.