Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Halewijn on March 01, 2016, 05:52:26 AM
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So lately I have been seeing DOT builds more often and I wanted to open a discussion about how to counter decks like these. DOT decks are fairly easy to build and play but can be crazy efficient and very hard to counter. Mostly, the mages being a warlock for the curses and serseryx, forcemaster for the pull/shield and force crush, johktari for felella and her fast ability or a necromancer for his poison immunity/plagued ability and zombies. In general they consist of multiple copies of the following cards:
The DOT-cards: magebane, ghoul rot, force crush, arcane corruption, poisoned blood, plagued, poison gas cloud, stranglevine and will receive extra cards from academy.
The protection: Enchantment transfusion, enchanter's wardstone, nullify. These make it VERY hard to actually counter the spells of the opponent.
Familiar: some of them use a familiar like serseryx or felella to give themself a huge action advantage.
Battle forge: to armor themselfs up.
Counter-strategies
1) rushing
The counter-strategy that work the best for me by far is rushing. If you notice you'll face a deck like that in turn 2-3, stop playing any card that will give you an advantage over time and start rushing. If your deck is able to put pressure on the opponent, do it, and do it hard. 8) Don't give them the time to actually play all their enchantments and force them to counter YOU. Since their strategy is damage-over-TIME you should, apart from force crush, ignore all the enchantments they put on you.
2) dispelling
If you have summoned a creature spawnpoint in turn 1, you will probably not be able to rush the opponent. One thing I tried with very limited succes is to actually (seeking) dispel, nullify all the damage. The downside of this is that you will still receive some damage, and probably will lose more mana than the opponent. The actual hard part is still pressuring the opponent if you counter this way. I guess you should find that golden spot where you try to only counter the most annoying spells only and leave the rest of your mana for creatures/pressuring.
Are there more ideas how to counter these kind of decks? In particular when you spend much of your starting mana in slow conjurations like a [mwcard=MW1J10]Lair[/mwcard] and rushing is no option. One advantage of the warlord is of course his armor and [mwcard=MWSTX2FFJ01]Harshforge Monolith[/mwcard] but since this is very mage specific I would rather talk about counters in general.
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A Lair might be a pretty good counter to a DoT strategy - large number of creatures should make you able to take out Enchanters Wardstone pretty easy. Even put pressure on the enemy mage and go after the Battle Forge.
Become better at killing Felella and other familiars. I see a lot of game (and i might include my own games) where the opponent seems to have no way of taken down the Pixie - even if shes left unprotected the whole game.
It shouldnt be that hard.
Seeking Dispel is pretty good these days - force your opponent to reveal enchantments and get rid of any Enchantment Transfusion before you consider using Purge Magic/Destroy Magic.
If this is the new meta - carry more Dispels/Disperse, and a Dispel Wand.
Finally the most obvious choise - play a lot more Necromancer :)
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monolith, it is not warlord only run more of those. thats a hard counter. I mainly went to use the DOT builds as a counter to the high armor tank builds. But mage wands with dispel still hurt a lot
rush of course
DOT has a huge weakness and that is the necro which is poison immunity.
the familiars are not so hard to kill.
If the force crush you take your time, it is extremly expensive with the upkeep.
Battleforge and familiar is really slow to start with.
Its as i posted somehwere already: Rush/creatures>DOT, DOT>=armor, Armor>>>creatures
Wait for priestess academy :P
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A Lair might be a pretty good counter to a DoT strategy - large number of creatures should make you able to take out Enchanters Wardstone pretty easy. Even put pressure on the enemy mage and go after the Battle Forge.
Become better at killing Felella and other familiars. I see a lot of game (and i might include my own games) where the opponent seems to have no way of taken down the Pixie - even if shes left unprotected the whole game.
It shouldnt be that hard.
Seeking Dispel is pretty good these days - force your opponent to reveal enchantments and get rid of any Enchantment Transfusion before you consider using Purge Magic/Destroy Magic.
Destroying the wardstones the other side of the board is not as easy as you make it sound. ;) Also, in many cases they summon a new one/second one very fast, the purge magic combo is one I hope I'll use one day, but it is really not easy to pull of. Also, 6 spellbook points is a lot! Killing fellela should be easy enough, but that's only happening in a few DOT-builds. :)
monolith, it is not warlord only run more of those. thats a hard counter. I mainly went to use the DOT builds as a counter to the high armor tank builds. But mage wands with dispel still hurt a lot
I really thought it was warlord only! thanks. It is still epic though.
Its as i posted somehwere already: Rush/creatures>DOT, DOT>=armor, Armor>>>creatures
Sadly, this is very true. Rushing is a good counter against DOT, but a rush itself can be stopped fairly easy with armor and such. I kinda keep failing to build a decent book using the lair. In general I want to summon as many creatures as possible (lvl 1) but I'm starting to think the level 2 creatures might be the way to go. 1 every 2 rounds.
Wait for priestess academy :P
Spoil the beans! ::)
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Enchanters Wardstone is very very very overrated. 2 wardstones is almost a full round of channeling.
Remeber that when you nullify yourself and the opponent with wardstones in play casts a face down enchantment on you, then you do not pay extra because the spell is not in play to benefit from stones.
So nullify is one of the best counters if your using enchantes ring or arcane ring.
I will admit i havent played in a while - but when did i found DOT builds pretty weak. Has something changed?
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Enchanters Wardstone is very very very overrated. 2 wardstones is almost a full round of channeling.
Remeber that when you nullify yourself and the opponent with wardstones in play casts a face down enchantment on you, then you do not pay extra because the spell is not in play to benefit from stones.
So nullify is one of the best counters if your using enchantes ring or arcane ring.
I will admit i havent played in a while - but when did i found DOT builds pretty weak. Has something changed?
They are VERY strong. ;)
Enchanters wardstone is a waste if the opponent does not try to get rid of the enchantments, but the stone can really make you pay a ton of mana or even worse, prevent you from being able to use dispel or purge magic. Also, without a ring, nullify costs 4 mana and the opponent only pays 2 mana. you still get a disadvantage. How many nullifies do you run in general?
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The wardstone is overrated!
what does it help you?
Most people don't run more than 3 dispels, so they pay 6 extra for 4 you payed. I rather save an enchantment with transfusion (wasting his mana, his action and his spell) by paying 2+x and 2+x to transfuse it back.
It mainly helps that purge magic will take time until it is cast. But if it is there i rather have my transfusion to save everything.
Purify is a nice card, at least you dont lose the mana if you run in transfusion or nullify with the current ruling. (purify threat). And keep in mind some rules thing, you dont have to pay wardstone mana if enchantment is moved, you don't have to pay purge magic wardstone mana if nullified or moved, you dont have to pay for all of them, if you really want to get rid of corruption and ghould rot, leave the chains of agony if you lack mana.
For stranglevine/astral anchor, maybe dont waste that 1 seeking dispel for early purpose. Or have some melee weapon to fight out of it.
run regrowth belt again instead of veteran belt, so the classic ghould rot-regrowth-arcane corruption doesnt kick in nicely.
Or if you get classic mage bane/ghoul rot openining, get a mage wand with dispel out of ini and get minimum 2uses out of it, and now oponent cant cast all curses as he has to remove that wand. And start to guess of which enchantment he won't run more. I played a lot of DOT books in Thunderdome G, my crucial ones were my defense rather than the DOT. (regrowth, rhino hide,...)
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The wardstone is overrated!
what does it help you?
Most people don't run more than 3 dispels, so they pay 6 extra for 4 you payed. I rather save an enchantment with transfusion (wasting his mana, his action and his spell) by paying 2+x and 2+x to transfuse it back.
It mainly helps that purge magic will take time until it is cast. But if it is there i rather have my transfusion to save everything.
Purify is a nice card, at least you dont lose the mana if you run in transfusion or nullify with the current ruling. (purify threat). And keep in mind some rules thing, you dont have to pay wardstone mana if enchantment is moved, you don't have to pay purge magic wardstone mana if nullified or moved, you dont have to pay for all of them, if you really want to get rid of corruption and ghould rot, leave the chains of agony if you lack mana.
For stranglevine/astral anchor, maybe dont waste that 1 seeking dispel for early purpose. Or have some melee weapon to fight out of it.
run regrowth belt again instead of veteran belt, so the classic ghould rot-regrowth-arcane corruption doesnt kick in nicely.
Or if you get classic mage bane/ghoul rot openining, get a mage wand with dispel out of ini and get minimum 2uses out of it, and now oponent cant cast all curses as he has to remove that wand. And start to guess of which enchantment he won't run more. I played a lot of DOT books in Thunderdome G, my crucial ones were my defense rather than the DOT. (regrowth, rhino hide,...)
And this is why Enchantment Transfusion needs to Die in Fire.
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not really, as that transfusion also costs you minimum 2spellpoints to move then enchantment there and back just like the dispel does cost 2, and mana wise you probably end up the same. And it potentially might even be better to run the enchantment a second time on its own. Just with transfusion you could protect all, and instead of deciding which one you run a third time you take the transfusions to be able to protect all.
And the drawback for transfusion is that you have to set it up and bank the mana to be prepared, which might be easy for a poisoined blood, but for multiple and force crush it will really add up.
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Wardstones help you build up enchantments without opposition. Even if the opponent only has 2-3 dispels, if they dispel the right enchantments early enough that can lose you the game if you're running a dot build.
If you let my dot forcemaster put a force crush and a stranglevine on you and a face down astral anchor in your zone, and a face down jinx on you, then you're just stuck there and can't escape that round. Your seeking dispel on the anchor gets countered by jinx, so you can't teleport out of the vine. The force crush will cost 9 mana to dispel plus 2 for each enemy Wardstone. Even If you have enough mana to do that (which chances are you don't at that point because of obelisk and orb if yore running swarms and essence drain if you have a familiar or psychic-immune creature that you need to hold onto), there's still the jinx. And even if the jinx wasn't there, seeking dispel on the anchor costs 6 with two wardstones in play and then the teleport is at least 3. And even then you still have the crush on you. Enchantment effects add up and combo with each other, and if you let a dot build just build up a bunch of enchants on you without opposition because you think you can just dispel them later, you might be in trouble if you can't get rid of the wardstones first. Two more mana for each dispel might not seem like much against an opponent that only carries 2 dispels, but it's enough to make the opponent wait longer before dispelling anything if at all, and by the time they do try to dispel the things they really need to, it might already be too late for them.
My advice against dot builds:
Block the dot mage's line of sight to you. Walls, cloak of shadows and blur. This is especially useful response if they are also obscured. Then they have to come in range of you to enchant you (unless they have transfusion).
Rush the enemy Mage and kill them quickly before they have the chance to ensnare you in a pile of enchantments.
If you're swarming, consider whether you need to take out their orb and/or obelisk first or their wardstones first. Against a forcemaster I would recommend the wardstones because then it will be less costly to get rid of their forcefields and then you might have more mana left over to destroy their orb and/or obelisk.
Dispel on a Mage Wand while obscured. Once the wardstones are destroyed you can just take out every enchantment one by one. Very frustrating for dot builds to deal with.
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Wardstones help you build up enchantments without opposition. Even if the opponent only has 2-3 dispels, if they dispel the right enchantments early enough that can lose you the game if you're running a dot build.
they can also dispel the right ones with wardstone. But what you mean with right ones? i have no right ones in my DOT build, i have minimum 2 of each (apart from the crush) instead of running more wardstones.
isn't it better than to run that enchantment again instead of the wardstone (at least everything above 1 stone)
If you let my dot forcemaster put a force crush and a stranglevine on you and a face down astral anchor in your zone, and a face down jinx on you, then you're just stuck there and can't escape that round. Your seeking dispel on the anchor gets countered by jinx, so you can't teleport out of the vine. The force crush will cost 9 mana to dispel plus 2 for each enemy Wardstone. Even If you have enough mana to do that (which chances are you don't at that point because of obelisk and orb if yore running swarms and essence drain if you have a familiar or psychic-immune creature that you need to hold onto), there's still the jinx. And even if the jinx wasn't there, seeking dispel on the anchor costs 6 with two wardstones in play and then the teleport is at least 3. And even then you still have the crush on you. Enchantment effects add up and combo with each other, and if you let a dot build just build up a bunch of enchants on you without opposition because you think you can just dispel them later, you might be in trouble if you can't get rid of the wardstones first. Two more mana for each dispel might not seem like much against an opponent that only carries 2 dispels, but it's enough to make the opponent wait longer before dispelling anything if at all, and by the time they do try to dispel the things they really need to, it might already be too late for them.
Force crush is extremly expensive to sustain together with the vine even more, thats a ton of upkeep for that few dmg. With a regrowth i can by time or even a heal, and let you suffer from your upkeep and my investments act somehow. and defenitly in a DOT mirror that one revealing force crush first will probably loose. Just kill that vine, of course jinx/seeking dispel works.
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The wardstone is overrated!
what does it help you?
Most people don't run more than 3 dispels, so they pay 6 extra for 4 you payed.
This is excately the point of my post (thanks mystery).
As soon as you drop enchanters ward stone any non wizard mage is better off not trying to dispell himself.
Wizards packed with dispells and wands will note care much because their strategy is long term anyway, so by the time you set all this up, they are plenty ahead with channeling anyway and can afford paying extra.
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Wardstones help you build up enchantments without opposition. Even if the opponent only has 2-3 dispels, if they dispel the right enchantments early enough that can lose you the game if you're running a dot build.
they can also dispel the right ones with wardstone. But what you mean with right ones? i have no right ones in my DOT build, i have minimum 2 of each (apart from the crush) instead of running more wardstones.
isn't it better than to run that enchantment again instead of the wardstone (at least everything above 1 stone)
If you let my dot forcemaster put a force crush and a stranglevine on you and a face down astral anchor in your zone, and a face down jinx on you, then you're just stuck there and can't escape that round. Your seeking dispel on the anchor gets countered by jinx, so you can't teleport out of the vine. The force crush will cost 9 mana to dispel plus 2 for each enemy Wardstone. Even If you have enough mana to do that (which chances are you don't at that point because of obelisk and orb if yore running swarms and essence drain if you have a familiar or psychic-immune creature that you need to hold onto), there's still the jinx. And even if the jinx wasn't there, seeking dispel on the anchor costs 6 with two wardstones in play and then the teleport is at least 3. And even then you still have the crush on you. Enchantment effects add up and combo with each other, and if you let a dot build just build up a bunch of enchants on you without opposition because you think you can just dispel them later, you might be in trouble if you can't get rid of the wardstones first. Two more mana for each dispel might not seem like much against an opponent that only carries 2 dispels, but it's enough to make the opponent wait longer before dispelling anything if at all, and by the time they do try to dispel the things they really need to, it might already be too late for them.
Force crush is extremly expensive to sustain together with the vine even more, thats a ton of upkeep for that few dmg. With a regrowth i can by time or even a heal, and let you suffer from your upkeep and my investments act somehow. and defenitly in a DOT mirror that one revealing force crush first will probably loose. Just kill that vine, of course jinx/seeking dispel works.
forcemaster tends to have more mana available to her than other mages because of her playstyle. She can afford the upkeep.
If you seeking dispel the anchor she can cast another one.
Destroying the stranglevine can get pretty hard if you don't destroy it right away. And attacking it costs an action, so while you're busy trying to escape the stranglevine a dot forcemaster is free to do other things to get an even bigger advantage. And if you do destroy it she can cast another one on you.
Stranglevine's benefit increases exponentially. It does more damage each round. Eventually the stranglevine will pu itself back. It's also another way to restrain an enemy Mage which can't be dispelled because it's not an enchantment.
And stranglevine isn't the only dot that would be put on your Mage. Regenerate definitely helps against dot, but it's not a hard counter to the whole strategy. (Poisoned blood and deathlock help against regen.)
Enchanter's Wardstones also effectively decrease the number of copies of enchantments that you need, saving you spellbook points for other things.
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You guys forget seeking dispel. 3 dispels and 2 seeking dispels will cost you 10 mana in total. I think that's worth it. In the meantime you will probably still get damage and probably the worst, it makes purge magic cost 12+2 per enchantment.
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5 dispel magics is kind of really expensive action wise. Especially in most modern DoT builds that seek to burst, wasting those actions on not building any board position. I like purge magic a lot, but that means you can't cast any buffs of yourself until you purge. One times, sure, but you can only cast those with good knowledge that you will be able to get them off before you purge.
I think that there are better answers to DoT builds, and I think cards like cloud and spring can go a long way to helping. Personally, I think Purify is a wonderful, cheap option that removes most of those nasty DoT enchants while not losing you too much tempo.
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spring could be nice true. also a welltimed heal or something is nice. I feel the main problem is that people are not prepared for the DOT builds they still use there bf to armor up and die with 5armor and where never hit all game :D
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Either you get a fast regen on yourself, or you just ignore the DOT's, while you're going for their action efficiency = Battleforge + Familiar.
Their biggest advantage would be Vet belt with 3+ armor.
Just make sure that you're able to dissolve vet belts and mage wands as your main prio while beating down their mage. If you've creatures, make sure they don't hit into the belt and that you can start using jinx etc to gain an advantage.
Having at least 2 null, 2 jinx, 1 purify and 1 purge magic/destroy magic will make you able to challenge the dots with incantations if needed.
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honsetly jinx is overrated after hanma used it in gen con. It is extremly strong in his strategy but not so super as everyone thinks now in the other builds
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honsetly jinx is overrated after hanma used it in gen con. It is extremly strong in his strategy but not so super as everyone thinks now in the other builds
I kinda agree about jinx. However, certain builds can really use it. (I think more aggro builds)
And this is why Enchantment Transfusion needs to Die in Fire.
Oh, and I totally agree with this! Enchantment transfusion is one of those cards I believe is just crazy overpowered. Both in the defence as in the offence. (to protect enchantments and to change 3+ buff enchantments to another attacker during that turn)
My top hated cards:
1) Enchantment transfusion
2) Wizards tower
3) zombie brute
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Ok, but keep in mind that people tend to forget about using enough seeking dispels in their decks. if you have 3-4 seeking dispels, then enchantment transfusion becomes less dangerous, because you can snipe it.
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Ok, but keep in mind that people tend to forget about using enough seeking dispels in their decks. if you have 3-4 seeking dispels, then enchantment transfusion becomes less dangerous, because you can snipe it.
This could almost only work when the opponent uses ET for defensive uses, not if they cast it right before you kill a creature to send all the buffs to another one or to get all the buffs to another creature for an attack. You don't have the time to plan seeking dispel, or even IF you planned it, to play it in between. The annoying thing is that you need tons of arcane support in your books and that seeking dispel also costs you an action. Not really progressive when you need to put pressure on the opponent. Also, a huge part of all of my books are purely staple arcane/water spells for armor and enchantments.
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If the creature is buffed and you will kill it next round, it's pretty easy to plan seeking dispel for the obvious transfusion.
Seeking is definitely a skill card, meaning that's it's only as good as the player that plays it. I don't think transfusion is a broken enchant by any means. It may be a hard card to play around, but it can DEFINITELY be done. Also, it's pretty obvious when and where transfusion will be played. This is the card's weakness.
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If the creature is buffed and you will kill it next round, it's pretty easy to plan seeking dispel for the obvious transfusion.
you need to plan seeking dispel for your quick cast, no attack spell, and you probably give the opponent the time to let it attack 1 last massive time or heal it. I don't like it that it can be so freaking action (3+ enchantments in 1 action) & mana efficient at the same time. Also, I don't like it that you just need seeking dispel for situations like this. A huge part of my books are filled with staple arcane (and water) cards. My warlord doesn't like it. ;)
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If the creature is buffed and you will kill it next round, it's pretty easy to plan seeking dispel for the obvious transfusion.
you need to plan seeking dispel for your quick cast, no attack spell, and you probably give the opponent the time to let it attack 1 last massive time or heal it. I don't like it that it can be so freaking action (3+ enchantments in 1 action) & mana efficient at the same time. Also, I don't like it that you just need seeking dispel for situations like this. A huge part of my books are filled with staple arcane (and water) cards. My warlord doesn't like it. ;)
also priestess academy will bring something there ;)