Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: MrSaucy on June 18, 2013, 05:18:33 AM
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I have recently played several games with the Forcemaster (my new favorite). One thing that was crucial to all of these games was getting the opponent mage into my zone... and keeping them there! Here are my thoughts on this.
In most cases the opponent mage will be either 2 zones away, 1 zone away, or in the same zone as your FM.
Case 1:
When they are 2 zones away, the best option is to use Teleport to move them to your zone. Then you can get a doublestrike in with Galvitar. If you are out of Teleport, the next best spell to use is Force Bash. This won't move them all the way into your zone, but it will move them 1 zone closer and incapacitate them, preventing them from moving further away. If you are out of Teleport and Force Bash, then just use Force Pull to move them 1 zone towards you.
Case 2:
When they are 1 zone away, the go-to spell should be Force Bash. Otherwise, use Force Pull. Force Bash is the go-to instead of Force Pull because it incapacitates the opponent mage, preventing them from moving away.
Case 3:
When they are in the same zone as your FM, you might feel like you don't have a job to do. However, you should do all you can to KEEP them there. The go-to spell for this situation is simply Knockdown. If you are out of Knockdown, use Force Hold instead.
So anyways, this is how I think when it comes to reeling the enemy mage in for punishment. Consequently, Teleport, Force Bash, and Force Pull are some of my most-used spells.
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I dont have the cards in front of me.... but dont force bash give a slam token?
If thats the case then you dont prevent anything from moving... Consider slam a stronger version of daze.
In fact consider it a daze that also removes flying, guard and defenses until the creature is activated.
When the creature is activated replace slam with a daze token and then the creature is free to take whatever action it wants including moving.
The way you put it, it sounds (to me atleast) like you misunderstood slam and knockdown.
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force bash gives the Slam condition, which incapacitates them until the start of there action phase. this means that while slammed a creature can't use defenses or guards and is not flying. at the start of that creatures action phase slam converted to daze, which means a creature could still move away (if 1 zone they would also be unhindered).
Note that while a mage is incapacitated (ie the quick cast action) the mage can still cast a quick non-attack spell. so you could knockdown the opposing mage, they can then choose to teleport/forcepush them selves with there quick cast and then start there action phase by removing slam to daze.
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Let's talk about slam than:). I might play it wrong but slam says target is incapacitated. Incapacitated means that when he is activated (if a creature) it misses its turn, you just flip its activation token over:
"An Incapacitated creature still takes an Action Phase during the round, but it cannot perform any actions during its Action Phase (normally, the action marker is simply flipped over)."
Wouldn't it mean that when a slammed creature gets it's turn, you flip it's activation token, he misses his turn, and than it gets dazed for the next round? The codex doesn't really go deep into this, so which way do we use it?
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Let's talk about slam than:). I might play it wrong but slam says target is incapacitated. Incapacitated means that when he is activated (if a creature) it misses its turn, you just flip its activation token over:
"An Incapacitated creature still takes an Action Phase during the round, but it cannot perform any actions during its Action Phase (normally, the action marker is simply flipped over)."
Wouldn't it mean that when a slammed creature gets it's turn, you flip it's activation token, he misses his turn, and than it gets dazed for the next round? The codex doesn't really go deep into this, so which way do we use it?
check the codex from ForcemastervsWarlord.
Unfortunately i cannot check it because im at work.
But i believe that Slam is described something like this:
At the beginning of the creatures action phase replace slam with a daze.
This makes the creature dazed during this action phase. And at the end of the action phase remove all daze counters.
So it can move, attack, guard etc only being subject to daze.
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Yeah I read it, but thought he won't be able to do anything that turn:). So slam is a glorified daze than, that could be removed right away if the enemy hasn't activated that creature this turn yet. Thank you for the clarification, so much to learn:)
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Yeah I read it, but thought he won't be able to do anything that turn:). So slam is a glorified daze than, that could be removed right away if the enemy hasn't activated that creature this turn yet. Thank you for the clarification, so much to learn:)
yes. But you still get the luxuary of it being dazed - sometimes this is enough.
If its a flying creature that you want to attack with ground forces, then you wanna wait till it HAS activated this round in order for slam to last until next round thus making ground forces able to attack it this round.
A unit with defense(s) likewise.
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Let's talk about slam than:). I might play it wrong but slam says target is incapacitated. Incapacitated means that when he is activated (if a creature) it misses its turn, you just flip its activation token over:
"An Incapacitated creature still takes an Action Phase during the round, but it cannot perform any actions during its Action Phase (normally, the action marker is simply flipped over)."
Wouldn't it mean that when a slammed creature gets it's turn, you flip it's activation token, he misses his turn, and than it gets dazed for the next round? The codex doesn't really go deep into this, so which way do we use it?
from Forcemaster warloard rule book
Slam: Creature is incapacitated. when this creature is activated remove slam and replace with a Daze condition. unmovable creatures receive a Daze condition instead of Slam. has removla cost of 8.
so Slam incapacitates the creature but the incapacitate is removed before the turn. the creature does not loose it's turn if it has been Slamed.
Note Slam and Stun and Daze are conditions and are resolved in different ways. while Incapacitate is an effect which is controlled by a condition.
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"Slam
Creature is Incapacitated. When this creature is
activated remove Slam and replace with a Daze condition.
Unmovable creatures receive a Daze condition instead of
Slam."
"Incapacitated
An Incapacitated creature cannot take any actions, including moving, attacking,..."
The mage can still cast certain spells, but the point is they can't move away from you.
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"Slam
Creature is Incapacitated. When this creature is
activated remove Slam and replace with a Daze condition.
Unmovable creatures receive a Daze condition instead of
Slam."
"Incapacitated
An Incapacitated creature cannot take any actions, including moving, attacking,..."
The mage can still cast certain spells, but the point is they can't move away from you.
wtf?
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"Slam
Creature is Incapacitated. When this creature is
activated remove Slam and replace with a Daze condition.
Unmovable creatures receive a Daze condition instead of
Slam."
"Incapacitated
An Incapacitated creature cannot take any actions, including moving, attacking,..."
The mage can still cast certain spells, but the point is they can't move away from you.
They are not incapacitated during their activation for Slam or Knockdown, just until the beginning of their activation. Otherwise Knockdown would single handedly shut down the Forcemaster...
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if it lasted the action you knock down bound to mage wand, have enough mana to cast it every turn. and unless other mage has purify or nullufy/reverse you stun them indefinatly. that's why it does not last through action phase, no reusable spell should ever stun 100%. currently mind control stuns 100% but it is not permanent
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"Slam
Creature is Incapacitated. When this creature is
activated remove Slam and replace with a Daze condition.
Unmovable creatures receive a Daze condition instead of
Slam."
"Incapacitated
An Incapacitated creature cannot take any actions, including moving, attacking,..."
The mage can still cast certain spells, but the point is they can't move away from you.
They are not incapacitated during their activation for Slam or Knockdown, just until the beginning of their activation. Otherwise Knockdown would single handedly shut down the Forcemaster...
That moment when you realize you have been playing a card incorrectly... and everybody you have been playing with has been making the same mistake...
Alrighty then. That certainly changes things :-[
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This reminds me of a person I played with just the other day. They tried to use Teleport to move themselves across the entire arena. I had to explain to them that the target creature and the target zone must both be within 0-2 zones away. He felt pretty stupid. Now I know how he felt ;D
I overlooked that part "or until activation... whichever comes first" part.
Edit: I forgot to mention that the guy who tried to teleport tried to do so across 6 zones.
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Yeah, if I missed that part, I would have been running 6 Knockdowns in all of my builds.
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Should I just delete this thread or keep it up as a learning experience?
Also, now I am thinking that cards like Knockdown and Force Bash really aren't that great...
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They are good to cast in the current round as long as you have creatures ready to take maximum advantage, you Saucy devil.
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Wait... what is the point of incapacitation preventing a creature from taking actions when the effect of spells like Knockdown, as I have just learned, expires BEFORE an unactivated creature takes an action? I must be missing something here. Is this just the deal with Knockdown? Or does this apply to Force Bash as well?
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wait... what is the point of incapacitation preventing a creature from taking actions when the effect of spells like Knockdown, as I have just learned, expires BEFORE an unactivated creature takes an action? I must be missing something here...
Incapacitation also prevents using defenses, flight, counterattacks, guarding, hindering and so on as well.
I like to use force Bash to slam one flier into another flier, which causes both of them to slam and thus both lose flying...then Sweep+Dancing Scimitar them to death.
It basically serves as an "ability strip" to open up your attacks, or let you bypass a creature and its defenses until its activated.
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wait... what is the point of incapacitation preventing a creature from taking actions when the effect of spells like Knockdown, as I have just learned, expires BEFORE an unactivated creature takes an action? I must be missing something here...
Incapacitation also prevents using defenses, flight, counterattacks, guarding, hindering and so on as well.
I like to use force Bash to slam one flier into another flier, which causes both of them to slam and thus both lose flying...then Sweep+Dancing Scimitar them to death.
It basically serves as an "ability strip" to open up your attacks, or let you bypass a creature and its defenses until its activated.
Yeah, that all makes sense. So really spells that incapacitate, like Knockdown, are more valuable when you have the initiative, right? Then you can use your QC to Knockdown a flier, the opponent gets their QC turn, and then you can attack the grounded flyer. Otherwise, if you didn't have the initiative, they could activate the flyer you cast Knockdown on... meaning Knockdown didn't really do anything.
Also, the one ability it doesn't strip is damage barriers, which makes sense I guess.
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wait... what is the point of incapacitation preventing a creature from taking actions when the effect of spells like Knockdown, as I have just learned, expires BEFORE an unactivated creature takes an action? I must be missing something here...
Incapacitation also prevents using defenses, flight, counterattacks, guarding, hindering and so on as well.
I like to use force Bash to slam one flier into another flier, which causes both of them to slam and thus both lose flying...then Sweep+Dancing Scimitar them to death.
It basically serves as an "ability strip" to open up your attacks, or let you bypass a creature and its defenses until its activated.
Yeah, that all makes sense. So really spells that incapacitate, like Knockdown, are more valuable when you have the initiative, right? Then you can use your QC to Knockdown a flier, the opponent gets their QC turn, and then you can attack the grounded flyer. Otherwise, if you didn't have the initiative, they could activate the flyer you cast Knockdown on... meaning Knockdown didn't really do anything.
Also, the one ability it doesn't strip is damage barriers, which makes sense I guess.
They work best when used during the main phase, not during the quickcast phases. You can just quickcast right before the activation you want to capitalize on (the attack on the creature, or when you want to move past it). then that creature stays that way until the opponent decides to activate it (which could vary depending on the target, the number of creatures he has and the overall arena situation at the moment)
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If they activate the creature early in a round, you can incapacitate them for the rest of the round so that you can land a second attack if necessary, but yes, it makes more sense to use Knockdown/Force Bash right before making the first attack you want to capitalize on.
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Alrighty then. Thanks you guys.
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the target creature and the target zone must both be within 0-2 zones away
I do no think the target zone has to be 0-2 I think the zone that the target creature is in. The target zone has to be in LOS but can be anywhere on the board. Otherwise it is quite a useless spell. Well not useless....would run all Divine Interventions if that was the case.
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the target creature and the target zone must both be within 0-2 zones away
I do no think the target zone has to be 0-2 I think the zone that the target creature is in. The target zone has to be in LOS but can be anywhere on the board. Otherwise it is quite a useless spell. Well not useless....would run all Divine Interventions if that was the case.
The target criteria for Teleport incantation is '0-2' 'Creature & Zone'
The first line of the card states the targeted creature is moved to the targeted zone.
If I understand your assertion, I do not believe it is correct:
It means that the casting mage must have LOS and range to the target Creature and the target Zone determined individually relative to the casting mage.
Therefore the farthest this spell could teleport the target Creature is 4 total zones, and in order to do that the casting mage would need to be 2 zones away from the target Creature and the target Zone.
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The way I read Teleport is that you pick a target zone and a target creature. It says "0-2 Creature & Zone" which leads me to believe:
1) the target creature has to be 0-2 zones away, and
2) the target zone you are moving the target creature to has to be 0-2 zones away from the target creature
So basically what Tanto89 said.
Regardless, you definitely cannot use Teleport to move yourself 5-6 zones. That would be cheap.
Sorry for not being clear with my original statement.
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Regardless, you definitely cannot use Teleport to move yourself 5-6 zones. That would be cheap.
Range: You may only cast a spell at a target that is in range. Range is always listed as a minimum and a
maximum. If the target is too close or too far away, you cannot cast the spell.
Target: Every spell must be cast at a target. You may select the target only if it matches the requirements listed
on the spell you are casting. Some spells may target objects with particular traits or subtypes.
Target creature is Teleported to the target zone. X = 3 mana per zone moved away from its current zone. You must pay at least 3 mana even if the target is teleported to the same zone. This does not count as a move action for the creature.
All of the evidence says yes. Looks like I drop a teleport for another Divine Intervention.
Is the target Zone from the casting mage or the creature. I understand the Mana cost is the number of zones the creature moves.
The more I have learned about Teleport the less and less I like it. 15 Mana to get across the board is not cheap btw.
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Regardless, you definitely cannot use Teleport to move yourself 5-6 zones. That would be cheap.
Range: You may only cast a spell at a target that is in range. Range is always listed as a minimum and a
maximum. If the target is too close or too far away, you cannot cast the spell.
Target: Every spell must be cast at a target. You may select the target only if it matches the requirements listed
on the spell you are casting. Some spells may target objects with particular traits or subtypes.
Target creature is Teleported to the target zone. X = 3 mana per zone moved away from its current zone. You must pay at least 3 mana even if the target is teleported to the same zone. This does not count as a move action for the creature.
All of the evidence says yes. Looks like I drop a teleport for another Divine Intervention.
Is the target Zone from the casting mage or the creature. I understand the Mana cost is the number of zones the creature moves.
The more I have learned about Teleport the less and less I like it. 15 Mana to get across the board is not cheap btw.
You are really complicating teleport.
Tanto described it very well, and all i can add is:
DI is priestess only so its not an option for most of the mages.
DI is epic, so you can only add one in your book.
If you teleport yourself it will be a maximum of 2 zones.
You can teleport the target to the same zone if you wish (in order to remove tanglevine) but you still pay 3 mana because thats minimum.
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So much minutia to the game, I am still learning after owning for 6 months. Sigth and sigh Di and Tele (Tele is really useless other than Tanglevine etc...)
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So much minutia to the game, I am still learning after owning for 6 months. Sigth and sigh Di and Tele (Tele is really useless other than Tanglevine etc...)
Teleport has many uses:
Get the opponent mage to the zone you want him to be in.
Escape creatures and getting rid of hindering with a QC before your activation phase.
Move a creature to the other side of a wall if the caster has vision to both sides of the wall (huginn or your mage if positioned correct).
Skip a trap you suspect to be a teleport trap.
Get out of quicksand (currently its the only garuenteed way).
Teleport slow creatures away from your side of the board making them spend several rounds getting back in the fight unless your opponenent chooses to spend actions and mana getting them back.
Teleport creatures with regen away from hindering enemies and make the creature take a few steps further away by itself.
Take that gorgon Archer out of tanglevine and put it in a better position where it can do its ranged attack.
etc etc.
With all the spellbooks i have made only one had 0 teleports... and thats because i was out of copies tbh.
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Everybody good now?
8)
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Everybody good now?
8)
Good but sad
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Teleport is still extremely useful. It is one of those spells I run in every spellbook (except for Warlord... darn that triple arcane cost!!!) The strength in Teleport lies in its versatility.
And when I said paying to Teleport yourself across the arena (an illegal move) was cheap, I didn't mean "cheap" as in mana... I meant "cheap" as in a little unfair.
Does that mean I think Divine Intervention is a little cheap? Perhaps. But at least Divine Intervention is balanced by the facts that you can only run one of them in your spellbook and it is a one time deal. Teleport, however, can be used extensively with the aid of a Mage Wand and you can run up to 6 in your spellbook.
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You can run up to 4 in your spellbook, but Thoughtspore/Mage Wand let you cast them repeatedly, so your main point stands.
I run at least 1, usually 2 Teleports in all non-Wizard builds. In my Earth Wizard build I'm running 4, and in my Fire Wizard build I'm running 3. They are still the most versatile/efficient position control in the game (aside from Divine Intervention which is Epic and Priestess only).
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SURELY every Wizard has four teleports at the very top of the book? Plus a nice shiny wand for them to be bound to?
I don't want to be too controversial given all he recent love for Bim, but in my book, teleport goes first, with Bim a distant, though still very good, second.
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SURELY every Wizard has four teleports at the very top of the book? Plus a nice shiny wand for them to be bound to?
I don't want to be too controversial given all he recent love for Bim, but in my book, teleport goes first, with Bim a distant, though still very good, second.
Am I the only one who feels like the Wizard has an unfair advantage when it comes to including "mandatory" spells in his spellbook? since many of these spells are Arcane? Seeking Dispel, Dispel, Teleport, Nullify. Very common spells. All Arcane.
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On the other hand, the Wizard has the worst melee options in the game, and all of his in school big creatures are slow, so he needs way more position control to function properly.
I'll agree that Teleport is the most generally versatile, universally strong card in the game, but that doesn't mean that every Wizard necessarily needs 4. My Fire Wizard runs 4 Force Push and 3 Teleports (I really like Wall of Thorns in that build). I don't run Mage Wand in that build because the build is much too aggressive for wands. When I first put the build together, I included Elemental and Mage Wands, but after playing 4 games with it, I realized that I would never actually use those cards, so I pulled them out.
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When I first put the build together, I included Elemental and Mage Wands, but after playing 4 games with it, I realized that I would never actually use those cards, so I pulled them out.
I have been doing the same lately. I used to always run Mage Wand but then I realized that I never had to use it. So I just started taking it out of my builds. Haven't really missed it. I guess it is because I like to mix up my incantations and be as unpredictable as possible. Don't like relying on wands either because all it takes is 1 dissolve and poof... no more wand.
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This is all interesting stuff.
I tend to build my Wizard with TWO Mage wands. 4 teleports. Fairly arcane creature heavy. Have him moving his own creatures and / or enemies for lots of position control. Also mix in teleport traps. The elemental wand is in there too, coming in with lightning bolt in the mid to end game. Creatures are gorgon, basilisk, hydra, iron golem.
Essentially it is hold the enemy in place whilst crippling and weakening them. The wand seems to work well for that. I run nullify on the Mage to protect it and have a second on standby. Not too expensive n a build with mostly arcane. Spells.
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This is all interesting stuff.
I tend to build my Wizard with TWO Mage wands. 4 teleports. Fairly arcane creature heavy. Have him moving his own creatures and / or enemies for lots of position control. Also mix in teleport traps. The elemental wand is in there too, coming in with lightning bolt in the mid to end game. Creatures are gorgon, basilisk, hydra, iron golem.
Essentially it is hold the enemy in place whilst crippling and weakening them. The wand seems to work well for that. I run nullify on the Mage to protect it and have a second on standby. Not too expensive n a build with mostly arcane. Spells.
Right. That is Wizard though. When I play Wizard I have Elemental Wands and Mage Wands in my spellbook, but otherwise I never tend to use Mage Wands.
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if only the wizard had a cheap reliable source of restrain. sure stone gaze but that's only cripple 1/2 time. hydra + tangle vine is a good combo if you have the points for it run 4 vines. quick sand has the same book cost but the mana required is very high compared to tangle for larger creatures (mage would cost 12). most efficient solution is to use the promo card stumble to keep creatures still for 1 turn.
if you manage to keep something in the same zone as hydra you can still get 9 dice on unarmoured creature
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if only the wizard had a cheap reliable source of restrain. sure stone gaze but that's only cripple 1/2 time. hydra + tangle vine is a good combo if you have the points for it run 4 vines. quick sand has the same book cost but the mana required is very high compared to tangle for larger creatures (mage would cost 12). most efficient solution is to use the promo card stumble to keep creatures still for 1 turn.
if you manage to keep something in the same zone as hydra you can still get 9 dice on unarmoured creature
I'm not feeling much love for the Hydra right now. Most creatures I face have armour so 3 dice are not cutting much mustard, even x3.
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try adding a piercing strike to the combo. unlike +melee, +piercing effects every double/triple strike. so you can reduce the armour by 3. best thing is they will likely leave an armoured creature next to hydra because they think its useless. reduce there armour by 3 then see who's useless now. and as a novice spell and 2 mana you can safely spam these on mage or bird. very few creatures have more then 3 armour. note do this combo once and hope you pack some dispel because an agony is coming.
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try adding a piercing strike to the combo. unlike +melee, +piercing effects every double/triple strike. so you can reduce the armour by 3. best thing is they will likely leave an armoured creature next to hydra because they think its useless. reduce there armour by 3 then see who's useless now. and as a novice spell and 2 mana you can safely spam these on mage or bird. very few creatures have more then 3 armour. note do this combo once and hope you pack some dispel because an agony is coming.
piercing strike only Works for the first hit in tripple strike.
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rule book codex for +melee and +piercing.
+ melee : .........if the attack makes multiple attacks against the same or different objects it only gains the bonus for the first attack......
+piercing: this attack subtracts x from targets armour when determining damage dealt......
key note is piercing dies not limit the effect for first attack so therefore it can be used for all multi hits. unless I missed a wording in the FAQ which I already searched through.
so placing +3 pierce on hydra will reduce the armour of opponent by 3 then triple that new armour value.
note incantations like sniper shot specifically say on card "effects only first target"
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additional strikes follow 3 steps avoid attack, roll dice, damage and effects. since there is no declare attack step they are all counted as the same attack. hence only 1 counter strike/ barrier/ +melee.
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Piercing Strike:
Target's NeXT melee attack gains the Piercing +3 trait.
It is only the first hit that gains this.
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double/triple make additional strikes not additional attacks. as a pose to battle fury which provides additional attacks.
that's why your +melee will re apply with battle fury but not with double strikes.
rulebook page 22 "making an attack"
when you attack, you must follow these steps.
1 declare attack
2 avoid attack
3 roll dice
4 damage and effect
5 additional strikes
6 damage barrier
7 counter strike
8 attack ends.
the additional strikes come before the attack ends so it is all considered the same attack. ie you can't start your next attack until you end your first attack.
again as a pose to battle fury which starts a new attack, it won't get piercing but will get its melee bonus from all turn long effects.
if you were somehow able to double/triple strike a second time that turn then you would not get piercing without re applying it.
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http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=8403.msg8483#msg8483
So, the Piercing applies to the very next attack, not a full attack action of multiple attacks.
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OK I understand the wording if the rule now. so the only way to get piercing on multiple attacks is to use tooth and nail and use whirling strike on an animal. that will get piercing on every attack. since t&n is only persistent piercing and only effects animals.(a serpent isn't an animal apparently)
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OK I understand the wording if the rule now. so the only way to get piercing on multiple attacks is to use tooth and nail and use whirling strike on an animal. that will get piercing on every attack. since t&n is only persistent piercing and only effects animals.(a serpent isn't an animal apparently)
thats how i understand the reply in that threat as well.
Tbh im disapointed that piercing strike didnt Work better,
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well as soon as they release a piercing enchantment the hydra might be a useful creature again, or they can just make it mediocre by changing piercing rules.
I should tell you that in my battle simulator the hydra still is the strongest dueling creature in the game. due to its 2 regen. even with infinite armour its triple will average 4.5 damage. the only thing that stops it is agony.
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well as soon as they release a piercing enchantment the hydra might be a useful creature again, or they can just make it mediocre by changing piercing rules.
There is a Piercing enchantment in the Dicetower Promo set, but it also specifies that it only applies to the first attack each round.
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well as soon as they release a piercing enchantment the hydra might be a useful creature again, or they can just make it mediocre by changing piercing rules.
There is a Piercing enchantment in the Dicetower Promo set, but it also specifies that it only applies to the first attack each round.
Oh look. Another case of Incantations being rendered useless by Enchantments that grant the same effect ::)
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well as soon as they release a piercing enchantment the hydra might be a useful creature again, or they can just make it mediocre by changing piercing rules.
There is a Piercing enchantment in the Dicetower Promo set, but it also specifies that it only applies to the first attack each round.
Oh look. Another case of Incantations being rendered useless by Enchantments that grant the same effect ::)
Nah, Piercing Strike is cheaper, novice, and not telegraphed nor dispellable/purageable.
I have the Enchantment version and still use Piercing Strike more often and in more builds.
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well as soon as they release a piercing enchantment the hydra might be a useful creature again, or they can just make it mediocre by changing piercing rules.
There is a Piercing enchantment in the Dicetower Promo set, but it also specifies that it only applies to the first attack each round.
Oh look. Another case of Incantations being rendered useless by Enchantments that grant the same effect ::)
Nah, Piercing Strike is cheaper, novice, and not telegraphed nor dispellable/purageable.
I have the Enchantment version and still use Piercing Strike more often and in more builds.
Whatever works. But I would still consider Falcon Precision to be better than Perfect Strike overall, for example.
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To get somewhat back on topic, I think the FM's most valuable tools for getting the enemy mage close to her and keeping them there are:
1) Force Pull
2) Force Hold
3) Teleport
Teleport is one I like to use when I have initiative and the enemy mage is 2 zones away. As long as they don't incapacitate you with their initial Quickcast, you can instantly bring them to you and whack 'em good with a doublestrike.
Force Hold is very effective. I like using it on an opponent mage who is on the edge of the arena. Why? That way you can really close in on them and cut off their angles.
And when all else fails, Force Pull works wonders. The fact that Force Ring makes Force Pull free is just icing on the cake.
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Tanglevine is a cheaper Force hold that I personally like more for the FM.
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Tanglevine is a cheaper Force hold that I personally like more for the FM.
I did consider Tanglevine, but I like Force Hold better for a couple reasons (for FM at least). Firstly, I like to play "thematically" and use as many mind spells as possible. Secondly, Tanglevine is removed by being destroyed whereas Force Hold can only be removed by Dispel. Tanglevine seems easier to remove, and I like it when my opponents have to use a Dispel on Force Hold because that means one less Dispel can be used on my other enchantments. Tanglevine does have the benefit of being a Conjuration, meaning there is no real way to avoid it, but Force Hold feels "cooler" I guess. Finally, Force Hold is still pretty cheap, especially if you use Force Ring and Psi-Orb to cut down on your costs. Not to mention, mana isn't a huge issue when you're a FM that is usually casting 1 spell per turn.
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Thematically, that may be better, but as to gameplay, tanglevine is often better to use. It's prone to being destroyed, but that is it's use. I would rather get a teleport out of someone's book than a dispel, as teleport is the stronger of the two spells. You can dispel, move, and attack with force hold. With tanglevine you either have to attack, forgoing your movement, or have to teleport, losing a teleport. Either of these options are vastly superior tempo wise than casting a dispel. If you are having to cast Force Ring and/or Psi-orb to cut down on costs, it is less efficient than than casting a single card that will hinder your opponent for a fair amount of time (a round at most), while you kill the opponent.
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I think if you place on creature force hold is better, on a mage tanglevine.
because for a Mage to waste an attack or a teleport is better then a dispel.
while for creatures they could melee attack vine anyway but they can't dispel enchantments
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Hmm. Good points @nitrodavid and @padawanofthegames. I'll try swapping out the 2 Force Hold I have for 2 Tanglevine and see what happens. I don't tend to use Force Hold on creatures because I run Sleep and Charm.
Also, @padawanofthegames, I run Force Ring + Psi-Orb every game since I cast a lot of Force spells. The decision to run both isn't because of Force Hold. But I see your point nonetheless. Tanglevine doesn't have an expensive upkeep cost.
I know this doesn't factor into the discussion since I am talking about pinning down a mage, but Force Hold works on flying creatures whereas Tanglevine doesn't. If we ever get a flying mage on our hands (hopefully never) Force Hold will be the better bet against them.