Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Avarice on June 18, 2014, 09:50:51 AM
-
I may be playing a wizard next week in my local tourney. I can imagine he can be a pain with voltaric shield. I'm going to get in his face early, as I would with any mage I face with FM. Any suggestions in sealing the win?
-
Constant use of AcidBalls, trying to exploit Thorns+Push and 2-3 HurlBoulder should finish off even the mightiest of wizards in no time. Just don't get distracted and anticipate his defensive ideas. 8)
GoGo mate. I <3 aggro.
My FM starts with a hidden Cheetah and a ForcePush-Spore as support and then goes directly for the enemy`s throat.
Situational mid-game transition (turn 3/4) is either a Forge or InvisStalker if I think I need to slow down.
-
I would try to think about what tools the Wizard has that specifically work well against FMs.
[mwcard=MW1C18]Gorgon Archer[/mwcard] can stack Weak tokens on you, which pretty much destroys your game plan right out of the gate if you can't get rid of them. Bring [mwcard=FWE07]Mind Control[/mwcard] or [mwcard=FWE01]Charm[/mwcard] or [mwcard=MW1E30]Pacify[/mwcard] to stop it from hitting you, and bring a [mwcard=MW1I20]Purify[/mwcard] as backup.
Maybe consider a [mwcard=FWJ05]Mana Prism[/mwcard] if you think he may use some level of mana denial.
Bring some [mwcard=FWA02]Force Hammers[/mwcard] to help against pesky conjurations like [mwcard=MW1J07]Gate to Voltari[/mwcard] or [mwcard=MWSTX1CKJ02]Wizard's Tower[/mwcard]. Getting a [mwcard=FWC16]Thoughtspore[/mwcard] with [mwcard=MW1I02]Battle Fury[/mwcard] on it can also help you take them down quick.
Bring some Unavoidable stuff for [mwcard=MW1C21]Huginn[/mwcard].
-
Thank you guys. Playing with base book though. Lol
-
Ok, played my first wizard with FM in tourney. God damn, it was a tough loss. Gate of voltari with harmonize is so annoying. I was able to take down wizard towers, but in hindsight, maybe I should have used force hammers for the gate, or went after his mage a lot faster than I did. I spawned a grizzly early, but didn't do whay I had expected. Rolled poorly, and gorgon archer lasted a couple of turns. Wand of healing helped with weak tokens, but I should have played control morewith thoughtspores. Maybe teleport on at least one (that came out too late). His gate had me at a severe action advantage. It was a good game on his part. Rolled well, and ran away with his mage well. And voltaric shield, lol, it was ugly.
-
Include 1 or 2 purify(s).
You cannot spend an action every round on healing wand to get rid of weak tokens.
If your bear only has 1 or 2 weak ignore it. Once it has 3-4 or more and u got i set up for a full attack QC purify and land the hammer.
Imo 2 x Forcehammers are a bad solution. You end up spending equal mana and actions to the wizard, but he gets atleast 1 action back from gate and 2-4 mana.
More than 50% of the time the gate will be 'alive' after the double hammer, and then your utterly screwed.
And when you actually DO destroy it, your not really ahead of the wizard.
I would try summon double grizzly vs a spawnpoint opening when playing a creature FM.
-
Thank you Jack. I'm actually removing the bear. Lol. I don't have the enchants to support it. I've won the first 5 matches of tourney with inv stalker and good thoughtspore play. So you suggest just going for the mage and not creatures?
-
Going for the mages throat has won me my games. But what about wizards tower? Would you ignore it? Also, thoughtspore with seeking would have been good to start. He basically nullified all his creatures to protect from charm and mc, and I ran out of seeking dispels. Maybe 2nd spore with tele to grab him out of archers range to me. I did this late in the game, but it was too late at that point. Was overwhelmed by 5 creatures.
-
Don't freak out with Wizard Tower. It is just an extra action limited to attack spell.
-
And range. As a Forcemaster, i would just pull my prey to me or block LoS with fog or wall of earth if that tower shoot fire or lightning.
-
You cant kill his hydra/gorgons/jelly's/gargoyles fast enough, so you will be overwhelmed in the end.
Imo the only option is to go for the wizard which is terribly hard because he will get out atleast 1 gargoyle, put in defensive enchantments and equipment and a wizard tower which will surge wave your biggest hitter every round.
In all honesty I don't think a FM can beat a Watergate book, but I would love to be proved wrong.
The FM needs some love after getting double owned by Bim-Shalla and Battlefury nerf.
-
Well, next small expansion could be wizard lady vs forcemaster gentleman :)
-
Well, I will say it was my hardest match up ever. I will probably be playing him again in 2-3 weeks of tourney, so I can think of some new strats. Having a seek on a thoughtspore and another with a teleport should help getting him to me, especially with jellies and gorgons out. Then I can use spore to keep him in my zone for double strike and scimitar. I will be on the clock, more than ever tho, especially with that gate. Last night when I did get a chance to tele him to me, next round he cast sleep on spore. :-(. Never felt so hopeless in a match before. Lol. I appreciate the advice guys. I am allowed to change mage before the matchups. If I feel I'm posting him the following week, I may choose another mage. Not sure who tho...
-
your using forge right?
Deploy wand iof healing and QC sleep away. Time it with initiative so you don't get dissolved before you get the chance to use the wand.
Remember to position thoughtspore in 1 of the center zones, otherwise it dies on average to a Jetstream.
-
Aahh. Ok. No, i haven't used battleforge the whole tourney. 1. Doesn't come in default book and in this tourney u need to win to unlock pts to get bf in book. 2. I didn't want to lose tempo as I'm moving forward to their mage.
-
If the Wizard has a Wizards Tower your Thoughtspores will be quite useless as he will typically cast the WT in his NC and keep his Wizard behind it. This means that you will need to bring your spores in range of the WT which will then blast them out of the sky with a Geyser or Arc Lightning.
In my limited experience playing the FM against Charmyna was to move in and try for a quick damage output to kill the Wizard as quick as possible. The longer the game goes the less the chance the FM has to win and that curve is very step after 4-5 rounds.
-
Ty Sike. I ALWAYS play aggressive with her, regardless of mage. I know I'm on the clock and have to win b4 getting overwhelmed by creatures. You mind me asking how the first few rounds went, or what you opened with the first couple of rounds?
-
I never had much luck against Charmyna with the FM. I mainly tried to get equipped up with Gav while running across the board and pulling the Wizard to me to beat up. This was right after CoK had come and the [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC06]Guardian Angel[/mwcard] became the bane of my existence, so then it became an arms race, I put [mwcard=MW1E28]Mongoose Agility[/mwcard] on to ignore the Angel and he then he taught me the painful lesson of the [mwcard=MW1W04]Wall of Thorns[/mwcard] and [mwcard=MW1I12]Force Push[/mwcard] *2 and a [mwcard=MWSTX1CKA01]Surging Wave[/mwcard]. Which now meant I needed armor which meant more actions before I went in to battle with the Wizard, which meant slow down (advantage Wizard), or a [mwcard=MW1J04]Battle Forge[/mwcard] build which didn't work, or just trying to live around the WoT Push, after several variants, I just shelved the whole FM build.
Now take that with a grain of salt, Charmyna gave me fits with the Priestess, Priest, Warlord, and FM builds. I would find an angle that caught him off guard and would swing things in my favor but his control/attrition builds in the end were just to much. To top it off the next build he would make would be even better than the last one as he would move things around and improve it. Matter of fact the Watergate Wizard build is partially in response to a couple of my builds and a Warlock w/ a Battle Forge + Curse build that he lost too (only once and I it was one of the 3 or 4 that he has lost out of couple of hundred games.).
-
Thank you Sike. I appreciate your response. Next time I play, it will be a race to kill him before he gets his creatures. I'll try forge, thoughtspore with tele to pull him away from his gate. Use scimitar to get rid of voltaric shield, and thoughtspore with tele to control his creatures getting in range of my mage. Eh, anything is worth a shot I guess. Just a very difficult match up.
-
He will easily counter it with 1 teleport action himself, and then ur stuck doing nothing.
ie:
Your turn:
thought spore teleport wizard to FM.
His turn:
Move 1 and teleport 2.
Your turn:
FM runs 2.
-
Now if you can get him with no armor a Wall of Thorn Push/Push. By Push/Push I mean during the final quick cast phase of his Initiative and during the First Quick Cast Phase of his initiative. If he is foolish enough to not armor up at that point you should be in a position to use the Force to bring him to you and use your Full Attack to finish him off. If you have a Thoughtspore with Battle Fury for your Mage or Surging Wave/Jet Stream, back through the wall you can spike a lot of damage on him and if you don't finish him off he will be making great and fast changes to his game plan at that point and you should continue to press your advantage. Double Fire ball or Dissolve and Push though WoT again.
You will only get away with the WoT trick a couple of times before the Wizard stacks armor with a Battle Forge build. Take a peek at the Fabled Watergate Wizard Build (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13037) to get an idea of what there is to counter it. It is a bit dated and would expect him to update several of these builds when he get the time too as he now has both DvN and FiF stuff to add into the mix.
-
How would I be able to pull that off? Use qc to spawn wall, then pull him through with thoughtspore force push? How would I get to shove him back then?
-
You would do the Wall at the end of the Actions Phase and then the Force Push after the mages action or during the Final QC Phase and then the second Push (now your initiative) during the First Quick Cast Phase of the next round. The point is that he is unlikely and typically unable to respond by performing the actions this way. If you have a Surging Wave on a Wizards Tower or Thoughtspore you can get (with a good effect roll giving you a Push effect) 30 dice of damage in row with practically no response, and yes I have gone from 0 damage in one round to death in the next round. Painful lesson to learn.
-
Don't waste your mana on things like Charm or Mind Control. It's a waste of action.
Try the following:
Deploy Forge with Defense Ring, Reflex Boots and all the melee stuff you need to hit very hard (scimitar, galvitar, gauntlets)
Deploy Bim-Shalla
Deploy the Temple of the Dawnbreaker, so you can reroll any defensive action
Buff yourself with Bear Strength and take a Forcefield with you for emergency situations.
Prepare some dispels for the enemies agony and enfeeble.
Protect your gear with Armor Ward and your enchantments with Enchanters Wardstone. Great synergy together!
Use Regrowth.
With your heavy buffs it should be easy to defend yourself and kill a gorgon archer every round. You have to melee attack every round, so you use an action with no mana cost, the mana saved you may spend with forge or your quick cast. Try to stay in the same zone to evade beeing attacked by them. Simply kill the archers and the towers faster as he can spawn them (with piercing 2 or double strike, that should be no problem). Always attack where it hurts most, where you can deal the best damage.
-
Ok, thank you Sike and Schwenk. In theory Schwenk, after all the gearing up with conjurations and enchantments you will be a formidable beatstick. However, the longer the rounds go, especially with wizard, less likely you will win. I'm no pro by any means, but all my matches that I've won was by hyper aggressive play style. I have to be swinging away on mage by round 4 the latest, and I've had at least a stalker or thoughtspore to join me. The only problem when I played wizard, was his tele traps and eagleclaws which slowed me down immensely. Plus, I wasted 17 mana on a grizzly, since he can wait till final qc to zap my stalker and kill it in 2 rounds. Shenck, how would your first 4 rounds go,( especially vs wizard watergate) go? Btw, ty for everyone's time and patience.
-
And Akiros Favor, if you somehow roll 8 critical blanks :)
-
Ok, let's see. It depends of what my enemy is doing. If he plays a watergate or summons a early gorgon archer, his strategy is defensive. I have some time to build up, but because i'm melee oriented, i'll advance to his zone slowly, using all my actions.
(1) -> 20 Mana
Full Action -> Move 1 and construct a forge, that can cover most of the arena.
Quick Spell -> Enchanters Warstone to the starting corner
(2) -> 18 Mana
Forge -> Deploy Defense Ring
Full Action -> Move 1 and construct a Temple of the Dawnbreaker near starting corner.
Quick Action -> Bim-Shalla near starting corner
(3) -> 13 Mana
Forge -> Deploy Dancing Scimitar
Full Action -> Move 1 and deploy Enchanters Ring
Quick Action -> Hidden enchant Bear Strength on you
(4) -> 16 Mana
Forge -> Deploy Galvitar
Quick Action -> Teleport 1 Zone (to the enemy or teleport enemy to you)
Full Action: Reveal Bear Strength and attack with Full Attack of Galvitar 8+4+3 Dice. Even the quick attack with piercing 2 could destroy a wizards tower.
If a gorgon archer is on the field, use your double defense to block his attack. If you are cursed with Agony or Enfeeble, dispel it immediatly. The enchanters wardstone should keep your own enchantments relativly safe.
If you fear a dissolve on your equipment, simply add the Armor Ward to your collection.
If your approach is somewhat successful, add a Akiros Favor, so your attack always deals a good amount of damage.
If your enemy summons devouring jellies, ignore them, evade them (they are slow and attack with full action only), use a force field and dont waste mana on armor items. Deploy the reflex boots instead for more defense capabilities.
If you get hit, use regrowth.
Your main goal is: Use your strengthend melee attack (0 Mana cost) to kill costly things from the enemy, that are easy prey (gorgon archer, wizard tower with a bound spell etc.).
-
Hmmm.. so you would go straight for a tower or a gorgon. Not the mage? What do you do about tele traps? He had a couple out while I advanced. Also, with bear str and hand of bim shalla first attack will be 7+4+3, no?
-
Seeking Dispel or walk another way :)
Teleport Traps cannot endanger your strategy. You could march right into them. By teleporting you back, he wastes mana and an action ... and you have more possibilities to deploy with your forge.
-
Honestly, against a Watergate I would "waste" time and ressource to take down the gate. Watergate Wizard strength is all the actions he gains from gate and tower. By taking down the gate, you force him to manually summon creatures, giving you an edge and allowing you the game to last couple more round before you are screwed up.
With Bear Stenght + Lion Savagery + Force Hammer, the gate should be down in 1 or 2 rounds.
-
i would exactly do the opposite thing. Let him waste some of his mana by summoning creatures. Buffed in the right way, you can easily kill them with no mana investment at all. Additionally, when summoning creatures, he lacks mana to protect himself.
Let him summon whatever he wants: Destroy it or evade it while killing the mage.
-
i would exactly do the opposite thing. Let him waste some of his mana by summoning creatures. Buffed in the right way, you can easily kill them with no mana investment at all. Additionally, when summoning creatures, he lacks mana to protect himself.
Let him summon whatever he wants: Destroy it or evade it while killing the mage.
You never faced a Watergate Wizard by your answer. With a gargoyle + an hydra out, you will never touch him, you won't kill these two quickly and during that time, he will bring out gorgon and gremlins to take you down while the tower slam you in wall, preventing you to use defense.
-
Wildhorn, Woukd you open the same way?
-
Honestly, against a Watergate I would "waste" time and ressource to take down the gate. Watergate Wizard strength is all the actions he gains from gate and tower. By taking down the gate, you force him to manually summon creatures, giving you an edge and allowing you the game to last couple more round before you are screwed up.
With Bear Stenght + Lion Savagery + Force Hammer, the gate should be down in 1 or 2 rounds.
He will Purify you and then Purge Magic you and then you have lost all of these buffs (i.e. actions), then more than likely he will Dissolve your Weapon and then Jinx you. You have to cast again (more mana on the Gate) and he still has plenty gas left in his tank....at least from what I have experienced.
-
You wouldn't go for gate Sike? Go for the mage then?
-
Both are very sound strategies, if you can't take the Gate down quickly, your in trouble. Remember each of the spells that you cast places mana on the gate, so in the four rounds we are talking about with a Harmonize on it we are talking 16 mana generated by it.
As I indicated you can and will be able to beat the Wizard, but he will make a couple of adjustments and plug the weakness you found and you will have to find another path to win the next time. I guess what I am trying to get across here is that while it is possible to win a game against the Wizard with the FM, it is exceedingly hard to do it consistently.
After the first game you win by taking out the Gate: [mwcard=MW1C05]Blue Gremlins[/mwcard] are easy to pop out 2 of, along with a [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC08]Gargoyle Sentry[/mwcard] in these four rounds and now you, are along with a Wizards Tower, 4 actions behind. The Wizard just sits and Dissolves and Dispels by sitting in the zone next to the Gate, and now you are getting beat up! Or he places a [mwcard=MW1E22]Hellfire Trap[/mwcard] in the gates zone, or as mentioned above, places a [mwcard=MW1E38]Teleport Trap[/mwcard] in the zone with [mwcard=MW1C18]Gorgon Archer[/mwcard] who then plinks you again and Weakens you. This is my problem with the Wizard he can carry all of this in his book, he just sees how you play once and then he adjusts his play and you are back to square one.
-
Honestly, against a Watergate I would "waste" time and ressource to take down the gate. Watergate Wizard strength is all the actions he gains from gate and tower. By taking down the gate, you force him to manually summon creatures, giving you an edge and allowing you the game to last couple more round before you are screwed up.
With Bear Stenght + Lion Savagery + Force Hammer, the gate should be down in 1 or 2 rounds.
He will Purify you and then Purge Magic you and then you have lost all of these buffs (i.e. actions), then more than likely he will Dissolve your Weapon and then Jinx you. You have to cast again (more mana on the Gate) and he still has plenty gas left in his tank....at least from what I have experienced.
Yeah I know... That's the problem with Watergate, it has an answer for everything. The other solution is double Force Hammer (you might need to cast a 3rd on next turn). You end up spending alot of mana, but if the gate is not destroyed, you end up so far behind on action AND mana because everytime you cast you give him mana.
-
You never faced a Watergate Wizard by your answer. With a gargoyle + an hydra out, you will never touch him
Using Guard against a forcemaster is somewhat useless because she can forcepull what she wants to double strike.
You could also just tanglevine the gargoyle and his guard doesn't matter. As for the gorgon archer ... a armor 1 hydra (16 mana) is dead pretty fast with the 8+4+3 dice ...
-
You never faced a Watergate Wizard by your answer. With a gargoyle + an hydra out, you will never touch him
Using Guard against a forcemaster is somewhat useless because she can forcepull what she wants to double strike.
First, the doublestrike is a full action so you can't force pull then move in to doublestrike.
If you meant force push, then you move 1 guard, but you need to attack the 2nd one. So Sweeping instead of Doublestrike. The hit that will touch the mage is just 4 dice, while his shield will eat 3 damage. Good luck killing him.
-
A good watergate wizard will also have a disolve wand to disolve your galvitar, it doesnt matter if he use all his round mana to do it because to get it back you need to do the same while he has a gate and a tower building up mana to kill you. If you dissolve the wand to be able to cast galvitar, he has 3 other wands and 6 dissolve. During that time where you deal no damage, his creature kill you.
-
Does nullify counter tele trap?
-
Does nullify counter tele trap?
Nope because teleport trap doesnt "Target" the creature.
-
The game really need some boots and/or enchantment that anchor a creature, preventing teleportation.
-
Lol. I agree. I also feel wizard too strong. Pays triple for nothing. And cheapest for utility. Very annoying.
-
We are at a dead point here. I would say: Come to octgn, Wildhorn, and i'll show you what i do with watergate wizards :D
-
We are at a dead point here. I would say: Come to octgn, Wildhorn, and i'll show you what i do with watergate wizards :D
No PC, so cant play octgn.
-
Thanks for the sage advice and guidance everyone. I guess if I beat a watergate wizard, the next time I will have to change strategy due to his versatility. I will try these strats out and see what works best. :-) btw, which mage best counters watergate?
-
Thanks for the sage advice and guidance everyone. I guess if I beat a watergate wizard, the next time I will have to change strategy due to his versatility. I will try these strats out and see what works best. :-) btw, which mage best counters watergate?
Another Watergate Wizard ::)
-
Thanks for the sage advice and guidance everyone. I guess if I beat a watergate wizard, the next time I will have to change strategy due to his versatility. I will try these strats out and see what works best. :-) btw, which mage best counters watergate?
Grizz Wiz or maybe Blasting Banker but both would be long a$&ed games.....
-
A Necromancer could be the answer! But he's good vs all mages.
-
A Necromancer could be the answer! But he's good vs all mages.
Maybe, any well played mage always has a chance if the dice roll in their favor.
-
Hmm.. so most ppl would agree that wizard is best mage? Does he need nerfing?
-
Hmm.. so most ppl would agree that wizard is best mage? Does he need nerfing?
No, no I don't agree to that at all but there have been dozens of discussions on that topic. Any mage can dominate if you can get their tempo and style down but that's just my opinion.
-
Hmm.. so most ppl would agree that wizard is best mage? Does he need nerfing?
Wizard doesnt need a nerf, the other schools need a bigger card pool. But like it has been said, countless of topics about that.
-
Ok, was just wondering what other people have thought about him. I do very well in local tourney with FM in your face hyper aggro style. For the first time, playing a watergate wizard (and using a lot of air spells), my tempo got stalled immensely. And as the rounds went on, and his mage taking minor to no damage, I knew by round 4-5 the game was over. Plus the horrible rolls on his gorgon didn't help either. Lol. However, it was a good lesson learned that I can't play every mage the same. And my opponent, humble in his win, admitted to the voltaric build being very strong (especially vs FM).