Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: chiller087 on October 11, 2016, 05:01:46 PM
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So what's big now? Just came across all the Wizard errata stuff, glad that was finally dealt with. Are there any Mages that stand out as being too unreliable to use? Which ones are viewed as being perhaps a little too powerful these days? Are people looking forward to Paladin vs Siren?
Lastly, is it possible to get the most updated printing of the core Rulebook somewhere? I'll settle for pdf.
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So what's big now? Just came across all the Wizard errata stuff, glad that was finally dealt with. Are there any Mages that stand out as being too unreliable to use? Which ones are viewed as being perhaps a little too powerful these days? Are people looking forward to Paladin vs Siren?
Lastly, is it possible to get the most updated printing of the core Rulebook somewhere? I'll settle for pdf.
Bloodwave Warlord and Jokhtari BM are the weakest. Priest is down there, but got both a boost and competition from Paladin in PvS - he's weak but playable. Everything else is certainly playable with the 10 Channelling mages generally being the upper tier. Since the Wizard nerfing the field is remarkably wide open, and in a pretty good state for most mages balancewise.
PvS is long awaited and very good...
Current rulebook is here: http://www.arcanewonders.com/resources/Mage_Wars_Arena.pdf (http://www.arcanewonders.com/resources/Mage_Wars_Arena.pdf) and codex, and FAQ's are in the same place. Pay attention to the slight changes on steps on the back page summary, otherwise rules are just how you knew them. The changes are really only to when you can reveal Enchantments.
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I've been playing with PvS since Gen Con and love it. I think it levels a lot of mages up. Both warlords do fine now. Priest gets some very nice Holy Avenger options.
It's really a good time to be getting back into Mage Wars. I still have trouble with Necromancers but wouldn't consider them OP.
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Agreed on necromancer. I also think the druids vines are a bit too powerful.. It should hinder every non druid, non plant creature. Or at least every non nature creature.
All these things are minor and nothing compared to the wizard. I would rather see errata for the weakest mages now. Especially veterans and wounded prey need a boost/replacement. Priest getting channeling 10 would also be very nice, especially with the arrival of the paladin overshadowing him in almost every way now. There are multiple treads about these topics already.
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Agreed on necromancer. I also think the druids vines are a bit too powerful.. It should hinder every non druid, non plant creature. Or at least every non nature creature.
All these things are minor and nothing compared to the wizard. I would rather see errata for the weakest mages now. Especially veterans and wounded prey need a boost/replacement. Priest getting channeling 10 would also be very nice, especially with the arrival of the paladin overshadowing him in almost every way now. There are multiple treads about these topics already.
In particular they should switch the two warlord's battle orders, and switch fast and quick summoning between the two beastmasters. This would make their abilities a lot more coherent, and the fact that their abilities are currently mixed up badly is probably the main reason they are so weak.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=17103
Could you elaborate on how the paladin overshadows the priest in almost every way?
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Could you elaborate on how the paladin overshadows the priest in almost every way?
Well, I like the priest, but here is why:
Training
Priest: Holy, dark x3
Paladin: Holy creatures and level 3 Holy and level 2 war, dark x3
The difference between Holy and level 3 holy is almost nothing. The current spellpool only has [mwcard=MW1I22]Resurrection[/mwcard], which is to be honest, a horrible card. The priest however has war level 2 training, which is AWESOME. He has cheap access to TONS of good war spells.
Mage only cards
Priest: Staff of Asyra, Crown of protection, Ring of Asyra.
Paladin: Crusade banner, Dawn's bastion, Sword of Radiance, Paladin's cloak, smite, ...
I think the difference is pretty clear here.. Sword of Radiance > Staff of Asyra. Ring of Asyra is pretty basic and the crown is pretty bad. The paladin's set has many more good options.
Abilities
While I for sure don't dislike the Priest's abilities, they are very expensive. Especially for a 9 channeling mage. A second disadvantage is that they are very predictable.
In contrast, the Paladin has many possibilities with his aura's, especially in combination with his "paladin only" spells. So, not very predictible. I'm not sure how strong his abilities are yet because I haven't used him, but I'm pretty sure they are strong.
All in all, I think the paladin is simply the better priest now. Giving the priest channeling +1 would help and it would help him pay for his abilities.
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All in all, I think the paladin is simply the better priest now. Giving the priest channeling +1 would help and it would help him pay for his abilities.
Absolutely agreed. Paladin is what Priest always should have been.
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ב"ה
I didn't play with PvS yet, so I have nothing to say about that expansion. The cards from that expansion seen to benefit mostly the holy and war mages, but it is only a guess before I actually try them.
The mages you probably wouldn't see in tournaments are the warlords and the priest. Unlike others, I think the priest main problem is his weakness against Adramelech warlocks (which kind of make his best ability useless), but he is quite decent against other mages.
Unlike some others, I believe that currently no errata is needed, but giving new good spells to the bad mages and counter against the best mages is enough (even though I absolutely agree that the wizard tower needed that errata, and removing the "spellbind" was a house rule we used long before the official errata came).
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I don't think the priest is bad. He became much stronger with academy and pvs. I just believe the paladin will replace the priest at this moment.
Errata would be nice, but I dont think it is "necessary".
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I don't think the priest is bad. He became much stronger with academy and pvs. I just believe the paladin will replace the priest at this moment.
Surely that's bad then? anything that's not the best at doing a function is bad, and if Paladin is better (as we all agree) then Priest is bad. Whether he's a little bit worse or a lot worse doesn't really matter...
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That just depends on how you define it. Without the existence of the paladin, the priest still had an agressive holy niche. I consider the priest lower tier, but not weak/horrible. Anyway, we agree, just a matter of phrasing I think. :P
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Just curious. Have you guys played with the Paladin at all or is this all theory?
From my limited experience with each mage I think the Paladin is indeed the "hit you in the face" playstyle, but I also believe that the Priest is actually better suited to supporting several tough creatures...and occasionally that "support" involves hitting something for the daze/burn.
My hunch is that building a Priest around Resplendent Bow might be a solid book.
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Getting back to new fun stuff to do, the Johktari is a blast to play with her new boomerang weapon in Academy. In fact the Academy sets have added so much fun to Arena play I seriously recommend them.
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Just curious. Have you guys played with the Paladin at all or is this all theory?
I've built books, but not yet played them (I have a ton of PvS proxies printed).
That said, I've a very theoretical mind, and 95% of book building and refinement comes from outside of games.
From my limited experience with each mage I think the Paladin is indeed the "hit you in the face" playstyle, but I also believe that the Priest is actually better suited to supporting several tough creatures...and occasionally that "support" involves hitting something for the daze/burn.
Do you know what would do that even better? A Priestess...
Priest's niche is with a single Avenger buddy. As soon as you start playing multiple creatures, Priestess supports them so much better.
Getting back to new fun stuff to do, the Johktari is a blast to play with her new boomerang weapon in Academy. In fact the Academy sets have added so much fun to Arena play I seriously recommend them.
I think teh boomerang is pretty weak to be honest (and yes I have played with that). If you are playing a Jokhtari, then yes, you may as well throw one in the book, but the vast majority of the time you don't want to cast it, and when you do, you don't want to use it - Fast with a range 0 weapon is almost as big a nonbo as Fast and full round ranged weapons. It's all a bit irrelevant though because if you are laying Jokhtari 95% of the time you'd be much better with a Straywood, even if that means putting a few L1 creatures in.
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Just curious. Have you guys played with the Paladin at all or is this all theory?
Haven't played the paladin, but most of what I say is just stating the obvious and not an opinion. (Training, mage specific cards, priest mana problems, ..)
I have no experience with the paladin's abilities apart from the reviews, the OCTGN video and thinking about possible builds, but everything points towards awesome abilities.
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I don't know man I would say 2 mana for 5 life on a creature is a pretty good ability.
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I don't know man I would say 2 mana for 5 life on a creature is a pretty good ability.
More usually 3-4 mana, but even it were free I'm afraid I disagree - I am looking for a much bigger reason on a stat card to not play Priestess.
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Yea I'm not sure why holy avenger gets bashed It is very similar to pet ability with the beast master. +5 life and a +2 Melee and +1 piercing is nothing to sneeze at and a really good ability. And yea I'm on the similar mindset with Coshade that it is better to play on a Lower level creature to get it to give a big boost and make it more dangerous. For 2-3 mana that is adding a bear strength or giant size with a piercing! Paladin is going to be very good no doubt but I think there is still a place for a priest and with academy + PvS cards there is more options.
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Yea I'm not sure why holy avenger gets bashed It is very similar to pet ability with the beast master.
I never bashed on any of the priest's abilities. I think they are pretty good. I just think that due to the support possibilities & flexibility, training and mage specific cards the paladin overshadows the priest as a holy buddy/big guys mage and the priestess overshadows the priest whenever you want to go more defensive.
I never called any of the priest's abilities weak, and I agree that the priest gets a huge boost with PvS and academy.
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The problem with Holy Avenger is unlike Pet there's qualifications to the Melee bonus. The Pet ALWAYS has +1 melee and if you follow it around as the Beastmaster, it's +2. The Holy Avenger NEEDS the opponent to attack something else, NEEDS to delay it's action long enough for that happen, and NEEDS to be in a position to do that. All the opponent has to do is have more creatures, have 1 thing guarding in the same zone and the Holy Avenger will never be able to use it's bonus. It should be an inherent ability; not one with caveats.
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Yea I'm not sure why holy avenger gets bashed It is very similar to pet ability with the beast master. +5 life and a +2 Melee and +1 piercing is nothing to sneeze at and a really good ability.
Pet gets you +3 life, +1 armour, +1 melee and a further +1 melee really easily.
Holy Avenger gets you +5 Life, and it sometimes gets you +2 Melee and +1 Piercing, but requires your opponent to cooperate or you to jump through hoops, and in either case often play badly to get the bonus.
Both abilities cost the same. +3 Life +1 armour is a little better than +5 life (note how Bulls Endurance is unusable outside familiars, yet Rhino Hide is used all over the place) but lets be generous and call that even. The Pet gets +2 melee for following your optimum strategy of killing the mage, whilst the Avenger is only slightly better at +2 melee and +1 Piercing, but only when they hitting something that hit you first, and if you want to hit it back. It's trivial to deny it from the mage with initiative tricks, activation orders (and some mages just won't trigger it anyway), and attacking creatures is frequently the wrong play. The Avenger bonus is commiseration prize for when you need to use it, not something you want to use - you want to beat down the mage as fast as possible!
The two abilities are not even close. If Avenger was free, then Pet would still be better, as it is, Avenger is waaay worse.
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I think there is still a place for a priest and with academy + PvS cards there is more options.
Nothing makes me happier than in a tournament than my opponent revealing a Priest... PvS and Academy haven't changed that.
In theory seeing a Bloodwave Warlord would make me happier, but that has never once happened!
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hmm.. I've in your camp throughout this discussion Kelanen, but now I think you are underestimating the avenger.
+5 life is for a holy priest MUCH better than +1 armor and 3 life. Most holy creatures have a lot of armor already with low life. [mwcard=MW1C22]Knight of Westlock[/mwcard] becomes an absolute BEAST to kill with 5 extra life. (also very expensive though)
I agree that you need to do some hard work for the avenger to work, but the idea is to use healing spells to compensate the damage the priest suffers. No defending yourself needed and going full out to attack. The bonus is a lot harder to gain, but it compensates with an extra piercing.
Overall, I think Pet is still better than the avenger, but not nearly as much as you say.
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+5 life is for a holy priest MUCH better than +1 armor and 3 life. Most holy creatures have a lot of armor already with low life. [mwcard=MW1C22]Knight of Westlock[/mwcard] becomes an absolute BEAST to kill with 5 extra life. (also very expensive though)
But if you put it on a Charging Griffin, the Pet bonus would be better - it all depends on the specifics of what creature you use - Knight of Westlock clearly has little use for more armour.
Personally, I think Knight of the Red Helm is the best Avenger, and I switched to that in my Priest book, from the moment it was spoiled. KotRH is clearly better with the Life than armour, but I'd still FAR rather have thepet ability and the dependable +2 melee.
Overall, I think Pet is still better than the avenger, but not nearly as much as you say.
Then we agree on the principle, and have to disagree on the degree. I think Avenger is a weak ability.
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ב"ה
With priests I usually take at least 2 guardian angels, so I usually take the crown of protection as well. The ability to boost creatures armor anyway is an important factor when deciding between "+5 life" and "+3 life +1 armor". for the spellbook points of a rhino hide you could bring 2 copies of crown of protection, so the only reason to take rhino hide with a priest or a priestess is for the mage.
If you are going to boost your creatures armor with the crown anyway, then +5 life is better.
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Crown of Protection is generally thought of as a very weak card.
2x Guardian Angel means you are playing a long drawn out game - which Priestess is better at. Priest needs to be going for a quick kill...
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Crown of protection is very weak?
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Crown of protection is very weak?
That's what I was thinking. 2 mana for an unremovable armor increase is pretty awesome.
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Good mana wise, but it takes a lot of actions. I never use it as a priest, but some of my priestesses run it.
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The actions are the problem - I've had it in loads of books and almost never used it. I've never had it played against me either, although I can't swear whether it has been in the books.
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I use Crown all the time now, but I'm also using the Priestess. I don't feel she needs the actions a lot of time and I like to save her mana for bigger creatures every other round or every round with 4 mana already added to the temple, so spending 2 mana to armor up Cassiel, GA, Ehren, a cleric here or there...I find to be very valuable.