Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Borg on March 03, 2017, 05:41:25 AM
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Situation: ( not saying this is smart play but ... if ... this were to happen )
Titanodon has Ballad of Courage ( Slow and Fast cancel each other out ) and opponent plays Enfeeble on it, giving it slow again.
Ballad drops off, now Titanodon has double slow, which as far as I know has no additional effect besides simply being slow, correct ?
Then a new Ballad of Courage is played. Does this cancel both Slows ? I assume, yes.
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Yes. Slow is a yes or no question and it doesn't stack. "double slow" does nothing so that enfeeble does nothing during the entire game.
- Titanodon + Ballad: Normal movement
- Titanodon + Enfeeble = normal Titanodon (slow)
- Titanodon + Ballad + Enfeeble = Normal movement (and thus not slow)
Edit: I believe this tread is about this. http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=17393.0
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Look at what Zombie Frenzy is doing.
Its removing the slow trait.
Fast and slow trait is not removing each other. Instead its cancelling the effect for both so the creature will be normal speed.
It does not matter how many sources that make the creature slow / fast.
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I don't believe that is correct. Zombie Frenzie states lose the slow and lumbering traits and gain the fast trait
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I don't believe that is correct. Zombie Frenzie states lose the slow and lumbering traits and gain the fast trait
What are you trying to say?
My point is that for a slow creature (no matter if it has slow printed on the card or if it has enfeeble or even both), in order for it to become fast it must lose the slow trait(s) and gain / have the fast trait.
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OH lol, I misunderstood what you were saying. My aplologies.
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Titanodon has Ballad of Courage ( Slow and Fast cancel each other out )
Correct.
and opponent plays Enfeeble on it, giving it slow again.
Wrong. Still Normal movement.
Ballad drops off, now Titanodon has double slow, which as far as I know has no additional effect besides simply being slow, correct ?
Correct.
Then a new Ballad of Courage is played. Does this cancel both Slows ? I assume, yes.
Correct, normal movement. Is the same as above.
Yes, Zombie frenzy is currently the only card to make a slow creature fast. (without dispelling enfeeble)
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This should be addressed in the next Supplement update. I'm sorry it didn't make it into the last one, it almost did but Laddinfance and I wanted to look at it a bit more first, which has turned into Ash and I looking at it since he took over. Basically, I'm saying that this has a decent likelihood of changing so don't get too comfortable with the ruling, but for right now Halewijn is correct.
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This should be addressed in the next Supplement update. I'm sorry it didn't make it into the last one, it almost did but Laddinfance and I wanted to look at it a bit more first, which has turned into Ash and I looking at it since he took over. Basically, I'm saying that this has a decent likelihood of changing so don't get too comfortable with the ruling, but for right now Halewijn is correct.
So let me get this straight:
- One instance of Slow will cancel all instances of Fast, making the creature "normal."
- One instance of Fast will cancel all instances of Slow, making the creature "normal."
- A Slow creature cannot be made Fast (i.e. really being able to double-move + take a quick action) without "losing" Slow (e.g. [mwcard=DNI06]Zombie Frenzy[/mwcard])
- A Fast creature cannot be made Slow (i.e. full action to move 1 zone) without "losing" Fast (e.g. no examples of this yet; a [mwcard=MW1C04]Bitterwood Fox[/mwcard] will never be slower than "normal" and, after moving 1 zone, will always be able to take a quick action).
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All of these are correct Nano. The last example is what happens when you turn a falcon, a fox, or cervere into a zombie. They have fast, they gain slow, and become normal movement creatures.
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Look at what Zombie Frenzy is doing.
Its removing the slow trait.
Fast and slow trait is not removing each other. Instead its cancelling the effect for both so the creature will be normal speed.
It does not matter how many sources that make the creature slow / fast.
So..... the point is to "Raise Again" Titanodon (making him a zombie) then Zombie Frenzy. :)
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Look at what Zombie Frenzy is doing.
Its removing the slow trait.
Fast and slow trait is not removing each other. Instead its cancelling the effect for both so the creature will be normal speed.
It does not matter how many sources that make the creature slow / fast.
So..... the point is to "Raise Again" Titanodon (making him a zombie) then Zombie Frenzy. :)
Haha. If I find my Sacrifical Altar Necromancer is wondering what to do with 10 sbp's, I'll consider it. :P
There really isn't a need to make Titanodon "Fast" anyway, since he can only Trample once per round. At least, not unless you also make him Elusive (or "cannot be hindered") so he can leave and re-enter a zone before attacking. And if you really want to have a Fast + Elusive Tampler, it's a lot easier to pull off with the Woolly Rhino.
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It was always my understanding that fast and slow are traits that are either "on" or "off". Getting it turned "on" twice does not double the effect, but just guarantees it's probably staying around. I look forward to see if there is a change to that in the future.
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It was always my understanding that fast and slow are traits that are either "on" or "off". Getting it turned "on" twice does not double the effect, but just guarantees it's probably staying around. I look forward to see if there is a change to that in the future.
The issue is to do with the meaning of 'Cancel' - is a cancelled trait not present, or supressed, and there are arguments for both sides.
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is there an update regarding this question?
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Halewjin answered this and iNano78 summarized it, so it doesn't need an update. Therefore I'm going to assume you're asking for an update on my comment regarding the fact AW was scrutinizing how these mechanics work. In that regards, there is no update or change at this time. Any update on the matter will be in a Supplement update, not here.
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Agony works with Trample attack? And week?
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Agony works with Trample attack? And week?
No to agony.
As per the trample trait description, "It is neither a ranged or melee attack and is not effected by things that which effect melee or ranged attacks"
Weak is interesting since the condition doesn't specifically say melee or ranged reduction like agony. However, I would lean on the side of "cannot be effected" overrides in this case, but I have been wrong once, maybe twice, before..
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Titanodon has sword with trample attack. It means that it is melee attack. So, Agony can work. I think it works like Aegis.
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Titanodon has sword with trample attack. It means that it is melee attack. So, Agony can work. I think it works like Aegis.
Reread the Trample rules in Lost Grimoire. It specifically says it is not a melee attack, nor a ranged attack. It is it's own unique thing. I agree that the symbolism is confusing, and I don't know why they put that on the cards, but it definitely is not affected by Agony.
It is however affected by Weak. For exactly the reason that Kharhaz made mention of. Weak doesn't limit itself to just ranged and melee attack. It affects all non-spell attacks, which would include Trample.
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I think Trample is an attack action, like quick or full action attacks. We have attack action icon, then type of attack and dices. In this case everything is clear: Trample is sort of attack action, which you can do when leaving zone. All Trample attacks in game now melee attacks, so you can't Tramble Flying and you can dodge this attack with Buckler. On Trample attacks doesn't affects bonuses like Melee +X, Bloodfirsty and ets.
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I think Trample is an attack action, like quick or full action attacks. We have attack action icon, then type of attack and dices. In this case everything is clear: Trample is sort of attack action, which you can do when leaving zone. All Trample attacks in game now melee attacks, so you can't Tramble Flying and you can dodge this attack with Buckler. On Trample attacks doesn't affects bonuses like Melee +X, Bloodfirsty and ets.
However it is not. Please refer to the following post:
Titanodon has sword with trample attack. It means that it is melee attack. So, Agony can work. I think it works like Aegis.
Reread the Trample rules in Lost Grimoire. It specifically says it is not a melee attack, nor a ranged attack. It is it's own unique thing. I agree that the symbolism is confusing, and I don't know why they put that on the cards, but it definitely is not affected by Agony.
It is however affected by Weak. For exactly the reason that Kharhaz made mention of. Weak doesn't limit itself to just ranged and melee attack. It affects all non-spell attacks, which would include Trample.
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does it cover flying? :)
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does it cover flying? :)
Yes.
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Trample attacks can only target non-Flying creatures, and cannot target conjurations.
It doesn't go into more detail because otherwise normal rules apply, but in case anyone was wondering: a flying creature cannot attack a non-flying creature without first losing the flying trait for the attack action. So if you have a creature with both flying and trampling, it can still use the trample trait but only against non-flying targets and your creature will lose the flying trait for the duration of the attack action.
Since Trample happens during the Leave Zone Effects step of the move, this means that you will not have flying during THAT step (technically just during the attack, if it ever matters with regards to other Leave Zone Effects). You will regain flying when you get to the Walls step, and can continue over the wall free as sin. This is because you can't gain/lose flying during an attack action, but you can during other actions.
Edit: In double checking myself, which I should have done before posting, I realize that the flying rules regarding having to lose flying to make an attack only technically apply to a Melee attack. Which Trample isn't. So the rules don't actually explicitly cover how to handle it. I assure you, however, that my explanation is how it is intended to work.
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I'm anticipating the flying thing opening a can of worms. Therefore the reason I say that it works like a melee attack in regards to losing the flying trait, and not in regards to other things like Agony, is because I've specifically talked to people behind the scenes regarding it. But if you want to play strictly by the RAW then a creature with both Trample and Flying should be able to make the Trample attack without losing the Flying trait at all. Meaning it would be immune to Counterstrikes (but not Damage Barriers).
It should be obvious that this is overpowered and unintended.
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Isn't trample already immune to counterstrikes and damage barriers? It's not a melee attack.
(It would be nice if LG's rules were online)
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Trample
Trample is a new type of attack which can be made while a creature is moving!
Once per round, when a creature takes a move action, it may trample attack as a free action against a target creature in its zone. The attack can only be used when it takes a move action to leave a zone. The attack occurs during the "leaving zone effects step" of the move action.
It may only use a trample attack to attack a creature in the zone it is leaving, not the zone it is entering. Trample attacks have a special icon which looks like an elephant's foot.
After moving, the creature is still able to take a quick action as normal, which may enable it to make another attack.
Trample attacks can only target non-Flying creatures, and cannot target conjurations. Trample attacks cannot occur when a creature is Pushed or Teleported. Additionally, a trample attack is neither a melee or ranged attack, and thus is not affected by things which effect melee or ranged attacks(such as the melee +X trait). However, it does behave like a melee attack in that it must respect guards. The attack has a counterstrike step and a damage barrier step, in which the attacker may receive an attack from the defender or the damage barrier.
That is how it is in the rules word for word
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Thanks.
I would say that by RAW trample isn't affected by counterstrike trait. By definition counterstrike trait works against melee attacks only and it doesn't matter if it comes from guarding or is innate.
Sure, there's "The attack has a counterstrike step and a damage barrier step, in which the attacker may receive an attack from the defender or the damage barrier. " but this doesn't grant the defender an ability to counterstrike. It allows other abilities that trigger in the counterstrike step to work.
IMO it should be "However, it does behave like a melee attack in respect to guarding, counterstrikes and damage barriers." or something similar.
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Personally this should not be able to be effected by Counterstrikes and the like due to timing.
This attack only occurs upon a card leaving a zone and once it has made the attack it is no longer in the zone there it made the attack. Therefore any damage causing elements that generate from opposing effects cannot target this card as it is no longer at the range of 0-0 that these effects happen under, hence it cannot be effected by a counterstrike, etc. However it should be treated as an attack in that zone when interfacing with other rules elements, such as guards.
On the note of flying trample then it should lose the flying trait to make a trample attack against creatures that do not have the flying trait. This then covers the thematic of a swooping attack. Against flying creatures it does not lose the flying trait as the same combat happens the 3D aerial dynamic battlefield (think dogfights of WW2).
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Personally this should not be able to be effected by Counterstrikes and the like due to timing.
This attack only occurs upon a card leaving a zone and once it has made the attack it is no longer in the zone there it made the attack. Therefore any damage causing elements that generate from opposing effects cannot target this card as it is no longer at the range of 0-0 that these effects happen under, hence it cannot be effected by a counterstrike, etc. However it should be treated as an attack in that zone when interfacing with other rules elements, such as guards.
On the note of flying trample then it should lose the flying trait to make a trample attack against creatures that do not have the flying trait. This then covers the thematic of a swooping attack. Against flying creatures it does not lose the flying trait as the same combat happens the 3D aerial dynamic battlefield (think dogfights of WW2).
Leaving the zone is step 3 and actually moving the card into the new zone is not until step 5 so the trample is still made while the creature is in the zone.
Even stranger example is that a wall could prevent the creature from moving into the new zone after the trample attack is made since the order is:
step 3 trample effect ->
step 4 wall attack (theoretically producing a stun or some other effect that prevents movement) ->
and then the move ends with the trample creature never actually leaving the zone.
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I think that a trample attack should be a kind of melee attack, just like zone attacks are a kind of ranged attack. It doesn't really make sense thematically for trample to not be melee.
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There are a lot of things that modify and interact with melee attacks, which we don't want affecting Trample. Not just dice increases, but also things like Battle Fury. It was a considerably varied list, so it was decided that the best thing to do to prevent all of it was to make it not count as a melee attack.
It seems that this may have thrown the baby out with the bath water though, as now the framework for how to conduct the attack is unclear.
For now, the best answer I have is that counterstrikes should work against it, and you have to lose flying to use Trample, similar to a melee attack. Besides that though, it shouldn't be treated as a melee attack. If anyone finds any other weird interactions where it not working like a melee attack causes problems, please let me know.
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Its a terrible trait / ability / attack due to its complex interaction.
That's what i thought when it was introduced, and that hasn't changed.
I'm very much against introducing additional complex interacting cards as there is already PLENTY of things you need to memorize when it comes to how different cards and effects work together.
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The thing about complex traits (grapple, trample, aura's, rage, ...) is that many of those don't show in a game unless you specifically take that card in the book. If you do, you should be able to inform the specifics to your opponent. I don't think you need to know every trait by hearth.
Although I agree that trample might be a little messy. Rules as intended should be clear though no? Zuberi cleared up the questions and I'm sure the rules supplement will get updated regarding this topic.