The value Mana Flower and Mana Crystal

[sIKE]

I have read many times over the last couple of years about it is not worth it to cast one of these, as it "Takes 5 rounds to get the mana you spent back and the games don't last that long". Other than falling to a hyper aggressive mage by not seeing it coming and preparing properly, this should not be the case.

Typically you will read this to: "The better mages channel 10 instead of 9 mana".  In some ways this perception is a result of the statement above.

Why is that you may ask?

While, it is true that these will cost you five mana and a Quick Action to cast, I believe that they are worth much more than the 5 mana that they will generate over the 5 game rounds it will take for them to pay for themselves by providing action efficiency each round via the higher channeling and the doors this opens. By casting one or two of these you have increased your channeling by one or two each round. I know this is an obvious point, but keep reading. I am going to focus for this theory craft, on the Warlord here as this topic was brought up last in Laddinfance build a book thread.

With both Flowers cast, you don’t have to wait every other round to get out a mid-level creature like a [mwcard=FWC01] Dwarf Kriegsbiel [/mwcard] or [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC07] Dwarf Panzergarde [/mwcard] each cost 11 mana. This means that in three rounds with two flowers cast and with no [mwcard=FWJ03] Barracks [/mwcard] have two nice level 3 creatures and the ability for next 3 rounds to get two more out, along with a [mwcard=MW1Q06] Dragonscale Hauberk [/mwcard] and Morning Star. You could not do the same with Barracks as it cost 12 mana plus one or two more Outposts and then another round to Channel up. However, I do like the Barracks so I would choose to cast it out on round 2 along with the Dragonscale Hauberk. On round 3 I would summon my other two low cost Outposts. So come round 4, I am now able to bring out every round one of the following creatures: [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC01] Bridge Troll [/mwcard], [mwcard=FWC07] Grimson Deadeye, Sniper [/mwcard], Bloodcrag Minotaur, or [mwcard=MW1C06] Brogan Bloodstone [/mwcard]. As you can see, the enhancement of the increased channeling opens avenues to your mage that otherwise you couldn’t afford each round. With 9 channeling and a Barracks you are limited each round to less favorable creature selections. With a Hype aggressive build, I would summon a Dwarf Kriegsbiel or a [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC06] Guardian Angel [/mwcard] early and let it blunt the Agro Mages charge while continuing to build on the above strategies. Soon enough with a little preparation you will be spewing out creatures and gain the action advantage on the agro mage and take him down.

The only other point I have is the classic [mwcard=MW1J13] Mana Flower [/mwcard] vs. [mwcard=MW1J12] Mana Crystal [/mwcard] which one should I pick question. Other than the Warlord (and maybe the Nature mages if my spell points are very tight) I always go with the Crystal. Flame based damage is a such vulnerability in game that I value the Flame Immunity trait of the Crystal over the Regenerate 2 trait of the Flower even for the Nature mages.

To make one of these work you have to cast them very early in the game, after round two, it is probably too late. I always cast these out round one, that way I can have them bumping my Channeling from the very start of the game. Other than that I don't do much to protect them other than "if" a friendly creature is in the same zone and I want it to stay there for whatever reason, I will put it on guard.

I hope this helps when you are planning your spellbooks!

[Wildhorn]

You are so wrong. Your examples are bad. You gives an example with 2 flowers and 0 barrack vs an example of 0 flowers and 1 barracks. We are not comparing flowers to barrack. We compare flowers to no flowers.

So give example were you cast 2 flowers and 1 barrack vs 0 flowers and 1 barrack OR 2 flowers and no barrack vs no flowers and no barrack.

All your flower examples are doable without them. As long as you do not reach the 7th round, flower or no flower, mana amount you have is the same.

You only get a mana advantage on the 7th round.

[sIKE]

You are so wrong. Your examples are bad. You gives an example with 2 flowers and 0 barrack vs an example of 0 flowers and 1 barracks. We are not comparing flowers to barrack. We compare flowers to no flowers.

So give example were you cast 2 flowers and 1 barrack vs 0 flowers and 1 barrack OR 2 flowers and no barrack vs no flowers and no barrack.

All your flower examples are doable without them. As long as you do not reach the 7th round, flower or no flower, mana amount you have is the same.

You only get a mana advantage on the 7th round.

The intent of this article was not to throw darts at the Barracks but to illustrate that the increased channeling provided by the Flower or Crystal is more than just a linear equation over a period of 5 rounds that is then paid for. I apparently have done a poor job.

The payoff is immediate the next round, when you can "afford" the more expensive items (that I wish to cast) sooner rather than struggling to save mana between two rounds to enable me to cast a costly spell. Yes, there is a small upfront sacrifice to tempo when starting, but when you are out in rounds 2-5 you will not be anywhere as mana starved as you would of been channeling just 9 mana a round.

[DaveW]

The payoff is immediate the next round, when you can "afford" the more expensive items (that I wish to cast) sooner rather than struggling to save mana between two rounds to enable me to cast a costly spell. Yes, there is a small upfront sacrifice to tempo when starting, but when you are out in rounds 2-5 you will not be anywhere as mana starved as you would of been channeling just 9 mana a round.

I think you need to compare spending the 10 mana to cast the two Flowers or crystals with not casting anything at all, instead. The question is... "is it worth it?"

If you cast these two, you spend 10 mana (8-9 for Crystals with Arcane Ring). Instead, you could choose to not spend that mana, and have it immediately available to build those five 11 mana creatures that you were desiring. It looks like this (excluding other misc. spells cast):

Start with 19 mana (presumed)
Round 1 = Cast two flowers -10 mana, +2 channeling; End mana = 9
Round 2 = Cast 11 mana creature - 9 mana (net); End mana = 9
Round 3 = Cast 11 mana creature - 9 mana (net); End mana = 9

Your total mana available to cast two additional quick spells in rounds 2 and 3 is 9.

Compared with:

Start with 19 mana (presumed)
Round 1 = Cast 11 mana creature - 11 mana; End mana = 8
Round 2 = Cast 11 mana creature - 11 mana; End mana = 6
Round 3 = Cast nothing; End mana = 15

You get four additional quick spells costing 15 mana or less in these three rounds also, compared with two additional quick spells costing only 9 mana or less, all while getting your creatures out more quickly.

It seems better in the short term to not cast the flowers, but to bring out the other spells that you desire instead. You don't pay the opportunity cost of the flowers and lose mana early on that way, and you perhaps do not lose tempo doing this.

In the long run, if the flowers or crystals survive, you will have built up enough mana to overcome the short-term mana shortfall.

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, though. I prefer to have one or two mana generators out on the board  and/or having my mage harmonized and/or wearing an amulet for additional mana, rather than not having any of these things.

[sIKE]

This is correct, you give up a bit of tempo in the short run (round one), but now you are casting 11 mana creatures each round vs. getting a out a couple of creature up front but then loosing tempo later as you are having to save mana over two round to be able to cast a creature or spell higher than your default channeling rate. Matter in fact you can not only bring out an 11 mana cost dwarf each round, but you also can spend some of your extra mana (you will have 9) getting at least one or two pieces of armor on.

[Wildhorn]

I don't know how you do maths. But you do not lose anything by not casting Flower/Crystal until 7th round.

With Flowers/No Flowers:
Round 1: 9 (19 - 2x5)/19
2: 20/28
3: 31/37
4: 42/46
5: 53/55
6: 64/64 (there the amount of mana gained is equal)
7: 75/73
8: 86/82
Etc.

You cant compare them by saying "I can cast a lvl 11 creature every round, while the guy with no flower cant do that after he spent his initial mana on something else".

No matter how you look at it. Until 7th round, the guy who cast flowers is mana deficient versus the one who did not.

[Zuberi]

Wildhorn is correct. The numbers don't lie and you can't argue with the math. If you cast the mana flowers on round one, then you are forfeiting one round to summon a creature every round thereafter for the next 5 rounds. Meanwhile, if you don't cast the flowers, you can summon those same creatures on rounds 1 and 2, skip round 3, and summon them again on rounds 4, 5, and 6. The result is the same both ways, you have summoned 5 creatures over 6 rounds and have the same amount of mana to spend on other spells. By not casting the flowers however, you have 2 extra quick actions to work with and you build up your threat faster.

So, the statement that the flowers only become better after round 7 is correct. The real question is, can you leverage the advantage of not casting the flowers before you reach round 7? I believe that this is most certainly possible, in which case you are better off not casting the flowers (or crystals as the case may be).

[Dr.Cornelius]

In my mind the the interesting comparison is Mana Crystal vs Discount Ring (Ring of Beasts / Force Ring / Enchanter's Ring, etc.).    For example, I have had good results playing Forcemaster opening with Force Ring an no additional mana enhancement.

For equipment based Mages, there is a good argument that the Battleforge is well worth the additional 3 mana for tempo advantage.   

[Zuberi]

I agree. The Discount Rings are fantastic. That's because they can pay for themselves in half the time it takes for the Mana Crystal to.

Battleforge also could be much more valuable than Mana Crystal in certain builds because of the Action advantage it gives you. This makes up for the Mana Deficit you are entering into when you cast it, which it can't pay off for 8 rounds thereafter.

[DaveW]

In my mind the the interesting comparison is Mana Crystal vs Discount Ring (Ring of Beasts / Force Ring / Enchanter's Ring, etc.).    For example, I have had good results playing Forcemaster opening with Force Ring an no additional mana enhancement.

For equipment based Mages, there is a good argument that the Battleforge is well worth the additional 3 mana for tempo advantage.

If you're going to do that, you may as well compare Spawnpoints also... though it can be difficult being accurate with some of the channeling amounts (extra mana for opponent's spells being cast or due to the presence of Clerics, etc.), and you have to deal with how long you expect these to exist due to armor / life.

[Wildhorn]

Spawnpoints are not there for mana saving (they only payback in 5-7 rounds). They are useful by saving you a Full Action, so you are not locked down to summon creature.

[jacksmack]

Spawnpoints are not there for mana saving (they only payback in 5-7 rounds). They are useful by saving you a Full Action, so you are not locked down to summon creature.

Putting spawnpoints into 1 box seems invalid to me now that we see they can do more then "just" spawn creatures.
(creatures, conjurations and equipment so far)
I dont feel locked down when i quickcast something both because i can move first and because it can be done with the quickcast marker.

Also i kinda disagree with spawnpoitns are not mana saving.
Gate of Voltari can give you a very noticeable mana saving while saving you actions.
The thing about gate is, once it repaid itself (14 mana channeled) it usually doesnt provide just 1 mana, but often 2 and sometimes 3 per round.

For 9 mana (8 with ring) the druid can get a 1 channeling vinetree that grants the druid 1 increased channeling.
This is not JUST an action saver - its definately also a mana saver / gainer.
Especially combined with he vine markers that will almost garuantee that she has the time she needs to regain the mana.

Wasnt the whole point with samara tree to get a mana engine going ?

[Wildhorn]

No jacksmack.

First, usually people say "Spawnpoint" for the ones that spawn creatures, else we call it Battle Forge directly (and no spawnpoint spawn conjuration yet, the yard only store mana).

Second, you do not save mana with spawnpoint because you paid upfront mana to get it. So with your gate of voltari example, it takes between 14 (unlikely) and 5 rounds to pay itself back. So here again, same deal than mana flower. So yeah, spawnpoints are an action saver, not a mana saver.

For your vine tree example, don't use a ring to compare. You paid mana for that ring.
So 9 mana for the tree. Yes it gives +1 channeling, but guess what? You paid 9 mana for it. Since the tree also generate mana, it produce 2 mana per round. Here again it take 5 rounds to pay back (but sligthly better than mana flower). So here again, it is not a mana saving thing, it is an action saving.

Edit: I feel I need to add before topic switch to that, I do not say Spawnpoints are bad, they are very useful to save actions. But not mana.

[ACG]

(and no spawnpoint spawn conjuration yet, the yard only store mana).

Well...the trees spawn conjurations.

Regarding the value of spawnpoints, I absolutely agree that their purpose is to gain action advantage. The extra channeling is bundled into the spawnpoints to help offset the cost of the extra actions, otherwise players would not be gaining actions since they wouldn't have enough mana to feed themselves and their spawnpoints. But mana generators are always better choices if mana is all you want, since they also place no restrictions on what you can do with that mana.

[sIKE]

I have stated very clearly that this play is a loss of tempo up front and that the math will smooth out if you graph it. At the start of the game you get 10 extra mana, how you spend it early in the game will guide your play style. If you play mana boosters up front with your extra mana, they pay for themselves as discussed. After many games with many different openings, I have found great value in the amount mana I am channeling in each turn. So much so that it isn't a simple (Casting Cost - 1 )/5 for the Crystal or Flower. The value to is provided by the enhanced channeling rate early and mid-game, basically rounds 2-8. I favor playing creatures in the 11-13 mana range. The straight channeling increase provides me the ability to summon a creature each round early game and allows me to use this mana to cast other spells in conjunction along way.