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Author Topic: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)  (Read 10270 times)

DaveW

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Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« on: November 27, 2015, 03:28:30 PM »
Someone played an enchantment that gave him an auto defense for one mana... I am guessing that it is an Academy spell, since I don't have that. Does anyone know what it is called?

Since it defends for one mana, why would anyone ever play Block anymore?
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Moonglow

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Re: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2015, 06:52:36 PM »
I don't know what it was, but defense isnt a guaranteed save whereas a block is... but then 1 mana is pretty cheap, I'd cast it :)

DaveW

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Re: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2015, 07:08:43 PM »
This was a guaranteed save... no roll needed apparently.
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Puddnhead

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Re: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2015, 07:43:41 PM »
I believe the card you mean is called Dodge.  It is only an automatic defense for Minor Creatures (level 1 or level 2) everything else rolls a 7+ dodge chance.  OR it could have been a Jade Gremlin that can pay 1 mana to dodge anything.
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DaveW

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Re: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2015, 08:40:29 AM »
I think that it was the creature that grows in power... probably an air creature... I remember that it had 5 dice maximum. It must be a minor creature, I guess.

So... for swarms of level 1-2's, no one will ever put block on them... dodge is so much better.
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jacksmack

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Re: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2015, 04:06:06 PM »
I think that it was the creature that grows in power... probably an air creature... I remember that it had 5 dice maximum. It must be a minor creature, I guess.

So... for swarms of level 1-2's, no one will ever put block on them... dodge is so much better.

So lightnig Raptor is lvl 2 (1 air and 1 arcane) - so its a minor creature.

Regarding Dodge.
It has a reveal cost of 0 (2 less than block). It Must be revealed when this creature is attacked (so its earlier than block.)
This means there is time to reveal Falcon Precision before the avoid attack step.

When it comes to lvl 1 and 2 creatures, most of the time this spell is superior because its cheaper.
For lvl 3 + creatures i would prefer block almost always.

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Re: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2015, 05:51:55 PM »

Regarding Dodge.
It has a reveal cost of 0 (2 less than block). It Must be revealed when this creature is attacked (so its earlier than block.)
This means there is time to reveal Falcon Precision before the avoid attack step.

When dodge is revealed the attack is canceled as per the effect, or if the defense roll is successful there is no need for falcon precision.

You can always reveal a falcon precision before step 2 and get through a block as well by the way.

DaveW

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Dodge and Falcon Precision
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2015, 09:24:31 PM »
Thanks, everyone. From what I understand, Dodge is revealed immediately (unlike Block, which is revealed in the Avoid Attack step)... so there is a chance to reveal Falcon Precision before the Avoid Attack step and therefore prevent the effect from happening.

Regarding level 3+ creatures, doesn't Falcon Precision also enable the attack? Or is the dodge defense roll made as soon as Dodge is revealed?
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Kharhaz

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Re: Dodge and Falcon Precision
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2015, 11:33:03 PM »
Thanks, everyone. From what I understand, Dodge is revealed immediately (unlike Block, which is revealed in the Avoid Attack step)... so there is a chance to reveal Falcon Precision before the Avoid Attack step and therefore prevent the effect from happening.

Regarding level 3+ creatures, doesn't Falcon Precision also enable the attack? Or is the dodge defense roll made as soon as Dodge is revealed?

Dodge does one of three things:
minor creature: "cancel the attack"
-or-
7+ defense roll : "the attack is avoided"
-or-
1-6 defense roll : nothing

Its not specific to any phase, step, or anything else. If, for the sake of argument, a goblin grunt w/ dodge reveals dodge, that attack is canceled when dodge resolves.

So the ultimate question is when is dodge revealed?

When this creature is attacked is very vague, however in my heart of hearts ,and because of my knowledge of Academy, dodge is revealed at the same time as block but they opted out of putting that phrase on the card to trim down on text space / complexity.

But instead we have "when this creature is attacked" and so there are 3 ways you could realistically rule where that mandatory reveal is happening:

End of Step 1:
After all costs are paid you have committed to the attack. Until you can cancel the attack and even choose another action. Once all costs are paid you have declared the attack, which states an attacker and defender are chosen. That could be enough to qualify as "when this creature is attacked" which would force a reveal at end of this step, canceling the attack or making an effect roll if higher level. No falcon precision

Between Step1 and Step 2:
One could argue, loosely, that step 1 ends immediately after all costs are paid and "you are not being attacked" until after step 1 ends. Even if this was case whomever had initiative would have precedence to reveal any number of enchantments, resolving each one before revealing another. In this case you could use a falcon precision to bypass the dodge, but you would have to reveal it / resolve it before the dodge is revealed.

If there was a conflict of timing and the goblins controller had initiative, he would be forced to reveal dodge and resolve it before the falcon precision gets a chance to effect the outcome.


Step 2:
This is the nice and linear place to put it since it is the step designed to handle defense and such. It would playout like block in the presumed example here.


Rambled there a bit, but the point is once the effect of dodge is revealed / resolved you cannot effect it later and it has to finish resolving when it starts before another enchantment can begin.

jacksmack

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Re: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2015, 02:41:45 AM »
Dodge counts as a defense... defenses take place in the avoid attack step.
Just because it has to be revealled early doesnt mean it cannot affect later steps.

There are several academy cards that in the attempt of simplifying the game are inconsistent with the current game.
That is a problem.

DaveW

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Re: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2015, 06:38:21 AM »
I guess we will need some kind of AW ruling on the timing of this (and, from the sound of it) other Academy spells.
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ringkichard

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Re: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2015, 09:48:37 AM »
There is a FAQ being worked on. Laddin's a very busy guy :)
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

sIKE

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Re: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2015, 09:55:19 AM »
There are several academy cards that in the attempt of simplifying the game are inconsistent with the current game.
That is a problem.
:'(
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Laddinfance

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Re: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2015, 10:15:04 AM »
Dodge is revealed in the Avoid Attack step. Dodge counts as a defense and defenses are used in the avoid attack step. Saying it must be revealed when this creature is attacked sets up the "trigger" to reveal it. A creature is attacked once it's attacker pays all of the cost associated with that attack and the Attack is "locked in".

So, to be clear Dodge counts as a defense. This means that you can only use it in the Avoid Attack step, and because of its trigger, if you've been attacked then you must reveal it. Also, because it counts as a defense if for some reason your Dodge fails you cannot attempt another defense as you are limited to one defense per attack. 

I hope this helps clear things up for everyone.

DaveW

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Re: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2015, 03:48:41 PM »
Dodge is revealed in the Avoid Attack step. Dodge counts as a defense and defenses are used in the avoid attack step. Saying it must be revealed when this creature is attacked sets up the "trigger" to reveal it. A creature is attacked once it's attacker pays all of the cost associated with that attack and the Attack is "locked in".

So, to be clear Dodge counts as a defense. This means that you can only use it in the Avoid Attack step, and because of its trigger, if you've been attacked then you must reveal it. Also, because it counts as a defense if for some reason your Dodge fails you cannot attempt another defense as you are limited to one defense per attack. 

I hope this helps clear things up for everyone.

Sorry... but it seems to me that you are saying two different things:

1) Dodge is revealed in the Avoid Attack step, and

2) It must be revealed when this creature is attacked (which you also define as when its attacker pays all of the costs associated with the attack and the Attack is "locked in") -- which I can see as happening in the Declare step.

Also, does it really matter where the defense is actually used (in terms of when the enchantment is revealed)? You never have to reveal non-mandatory enchantments when they are actually used, after all.
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