Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: The Dude on April 15, 2013, 05:20:55 PM
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Go: A tandum study
Have any of you ever played or studied Go? It is a very niche game that very few gamers really like to delve into, because, while the rules are incredibly simple, the game itself is such a complex battle of balance and tempo that it takes months to understand and a complete lifetime to even begin to master. But why am I talking about Go on a Mage Wars forum? The answer is simple: there are some very viable concepts that apply both to Go and to Mage Wars. Today, we are going to look at those concepts. In order to do that, let use first explain the very basics of go, and the two concepts that apply to both games.
Go is a game played on a 19x19 grid, on which players take turns placing one black or white stone at a time. It is a game of Area control at it’s very base, with players alternating between attacking and defending their position on the board to score the most territory. This seems like it would not relate to Mage Wars at all, but two concepts, Sente, and Gote, are so inherent to both Go and Mage Wars that both types of players need to understand these concepts to really do well at this game. So, what do these two strange words mean?
Sente means having the initiative, forcing the opponent to respond to a move you just made for fear of further losing board position. This means that you are keeping the tempo on your side. If you are forcing your opponent to react, you can do whatever you want without fear of the opponent counterattacking.
Gote means potentially passing the initiative, allowing the opponent to not respond to a move you just made, and possible perform sente on you during the next hand of play. To relate this to Mage Wars, its when you have the tempo advantage, and you do a subpar move, or heal at the wrong time, or move into the wrong zone, or you place the wall on the wrong side. It allows the opponent to stop reacting to your attacks of advantage, and to start making attacks of advantage on their own. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but you need to be certain that if you play a gote, you can use that move to Sente with your next possible action, or actions.
But how can we, as Mage Wars players, really take advantage of the balance of Sente/Gote? Well, let’s look at this way: Would you give up 50 dollars to have a hundred next week? Or a thousand next month? The answer is it depends on how bad you need that 50 dollars. The example applies to sente this way: How bad do you need to gain tempo? Gain you afford to lose tempo advantage for a round, to make perform gote, in order to perform a powerful sente just a little later?
Now, at first we thought that this may not work all the time, because unlike Go, Mage Wars does have hidden game elements, namely the cards in the spellbooks. This could potentially ruin an attempt at performing Sente to it’s fullest advantage. In order to control how well Sente/Gote will play out for you, you need to read how your opponent will sente your act of gote. Will they play a big creature/attack spell/ expensive enchantment? No, you cannot tell just by looking at them, but you can tell by the way they open the game, and the mage that they are acting as. Are they a solo Warlock deck? Then they may try to battle fury you if they get the best chance. Your gote could be a block on yourself or a jinx on them, with the hopes of baiting them in for your real Sente move, which would be a pumped Archer attack that they were just out of range of. This is just a small example of reading strategies to best utilize the tactics in your spellbook to perform the most effective and efficient Sente and gote.
Prepare! If you are planning on making a game ending sente move, you must prepare that sente well in advance, maybe even at the beginning of the game. This preparation will really help to perform sente easier, and with less resistance. Prepare against opponents sentes as well. There was one game where I used an Iron Golem to force a hellfire trap to be wasted, allowing my mage to take proper position to win the battle.
How can you tell the difference between a sente and gote move? The answer is subjective to every mage, but there are some guidelines one should follow when deciding to react to a potential sente:
1. Does it threaten to kill your mage or your most powerful threat?
2. Does it threaten your board position in a way that would stop you from getting to the opponent?
3. Does it take your tempo or action advantage away from you?
Once you decide, you must now make the decision to either react to the sente or perform a sente of your own. If you can do both, all the better, but a good opponent will never let you take advantage of your advantage, so think carefully before you decide.
The final note I can give you on Sente and gote is that EVERY move in game is either one or the other, no matter how superficial or menial that move may seem, the realization that every move can be reacted to is a major hurdle in advancing your game, and using that to your advantage will only help you in your quest to dominate the arena. Turn 1 mana crystal/mana crystal? Gote. Turn two battle forge? Gote. Turn 3 grizzly bear w/ facedown enchantment? Sente. Even reactive moves are sente and gote. Turn to stone in response to grizzly bear summon? Sente. The key is to keep your opponent performing gote all the time in response to your sente. This is harder to do in practice than in theory, but it can be done, and I highly encourage deeper study of this ebb and flow. As always, thank you all so much for taking the time to read this, and any comments, criticisms, or questions you may, feel free to respond! Cheers!
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Hey! And another great article! I enjoy the comparisons to Go. I have yet to really hear that, and I would say its an more accurate comparison then chess. The rules of Go are remind me of mage wars in that only 2 simple rules govern all play and yet you have endless possibility. Chess relies on a complex rule set to govern these possibilities.
The object of the game of Chess is-check mate the king. Now, that could be compared to Mage Wars in that you "check mate" the opposing mage, but in Mage Wars it a lot more about "Greater market share" or Dominance/resources, which I feel is much more akin to Go then anything else.
Chess while played really only stimulates the left side of the brain, while Go Fully utilizes/integrates analytic (left brain) and artistic/pattern recognition (right brain) functions. Im no neurologist but I bet that Mage Wars is the same as Go.
Chess has a set number of playing pieces, where as Go and Mage Wars your pieces are brought into the game. As well as Chess having a fixed start with the pieces, Mage Wars and Go do not, much of the game is starting placement.
The number of starting moves in chess are around 400, while Go is 40,000 (I think) Mage wars is as endless as the cards we have.
One of the biggest differences is Chess is strictly tactical. while Go and Mage Wars are strategical, with heave elements of tactics.
This is an explanation of Go, that I feel fits Mage Wars perfectly: Features deep strategic planning implemented via incisive tactics involving feints, diversions, invasions, pincer and multi-purpose attacks,often involving both real and pseudo sacrifices.
Also Computers have yet to be even good at Go. While we have a Grand Master for chess. Its the strategic level of what is mentioned above, that make it hard for a computer to play Go. And it would prove the same difficulty for mage wars.
Again, another great read, good job! I went of into a Chess Vs. Go in what is closer to mage wars here, but like I said, it is a much more accurate comparison, that is overlooked.
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Ok, that was your best article to date, by far. It was your best written, it was well thought out, and while there is no denying the importance of tempo to MW, this was a far more interesting slant and therefore read. Excellent.
I do want to make comments on the content, but I need to read it again and think about it some more. There was no reason not to give you your due on an outstanding article right now.
You set a high standard with this one.
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Definitely worthy of a sticky.
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There's at least one element of Mage Wars that doesn't exist in 99% of board games, Go included: Hidden enchantments.
When you play a decoy, you know that it's a "Gote" move - it doesn't make your position any more dominant. However, your opponent doesn't know it. Especially if he's been previously burned by Reverse attacks, he may use a weaker attack against you or spend actions on Seeking Dispel prior to attacking - an action delay that may give you the advantage.
Honestly, it's the mindgame aspect of Enchantments that really sets Mage Wars apart from other games. I've both won games and lost games due to a single well placed reverse attack or nullify. There is no mechanic like that in Chess or Go or MTG etc.
Even more so than Go, computers are notoriously bad at asymmetrical-information games. Despite being able to count cards and compute exact probabilities, computers are unable to beat skilled humans at poker. A computer would undoubtedly be terrible at Mage Wars.
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Yes, and I took that into account. The two can be studied together without having completely synchronous game play. There are similar concepts but very different mechiancs. But it cannot be denied that these two concepts in particular have a lot to share with each other, much more so than chess does to Mage Wars, for example, but they are still two very different games. Making an apt comparison was more of a way to explain the idea then to call the two the same game.
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I like this little article. I've only played a handful of games, but I noticed very quickly that initiative was important, but how you used it was more so. These concepts help clarify that intuition a great deal.
In addition to sente and gote, I would also argue that Mage Wars is actually an area control game in disguise. It may appear to be a duel on the surface, but Mage Wars seems to have much more in common with Go than even its apparently obvious analogue, Magic the Gathering. However, Mage Wars has something which makes it different from Go, and that is the important "areas of control" shift over the course of the game.
Obviously, one aspect of this issue is the Mage's moving around, but it can also be more subtle. It could also be realizing when your Warlock's Battleforge has lost utility, and you move creatures away to guard your now more important Mana Crystals. Or you could (in MtG lingo) use your life total as a resource, essentially taking advantage of your Mage's high HP to draw attention away from, or towards, strategic points.
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My friend, you have just hit a point I ave been thinking about for a long time- MW is a Euro Game in disguise. But, before I go into that, I must first say that your observation of Go is not wrong, rather it's short sighted. Especially on games played on a 9x9 (blasphemy!), control of areas on a Go board constantly switches with opponents of equal skill.
But, why do I say it's a euro game? Because, you have all the classic "hits" of a Euro/abstract. Let's look at what BGG says about Euros http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Eurogame (http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Eurogame):
Most Eurogames share the following elements:
Player conflict is indirect and usually involves competition over resources or points. Combat is extremely rare.
Players are never eliminated from the game (All players are still playing when the game ends.)
There is very little randomness or luck. Randomness that is there is mitigated by having the player decide what to do after a random event happens rather than before. Dice are rare, but not unheard of, in a Euro.
The Designer of the game is listed on the game's box cover. Though this is not particular to Euros, the Eurogame movement seems to have started this trend. This is why some gamers and designers call this genre of games Designer Games.
Much attention is paid to the artwork and components. Plastic and metal are rare, more often pieces are made of wood.
Eurogames have a definite theme, however, the theme most often has very little to do with the gameplay. The focus instead is on the mechanics; for example, a game about space may be the same as a game about ancient Rome.
MW has almost all of these qualities, including resource management! Yes, there is direct conflict, but it is a means to an end. I often think of an opponent's life total as a point scoring mechanism. You don't score any points for killing creatures, only for killing the mage. There is VERY little luck in MW. OH BUT THE DICE, SIR! This is where statistics come. The law of averages state that the more times you test something, the closer of an average result you will get. This is never perfect, per say, but theoretically it can be. If you roll one damage die once, chances are 1 in 6 that you will roll a 2 critical. If you roll 2 dice, those stats have increased to 1 in 6 for both dice. But, as Mage Wars players, we strive to break the components (ie roll more than the number of dice that come with the game). Side note: at least I do, the feeling of rolling more dice than you are allowed to has a certain... rebellious feeling. but the point is, luck is still a factor, but it is greatly mitigated both mechanically and dynamically.
The other factor that makes it not so much a Euro is the fact that this game drips with theme. But, to talk about your specific post, which is Area control. What makes this a different sort of area control game than Go is that the areas are not apparent, at least at first glance, whereas in Go, you can normally get a good view of what areas will be fought over by midgame. different mages want different approaches. I know for the Wizard, I want to control the two middle squares, as I can cast all of my attack spells from that point. For the priestess, she wants to control about a third of the board (the first 4 zones lengthways). This is not static, rather it's to point out that Area control does have an interesting dynamic in game play.
the last sentence is very interesting, as it talks about baiting, which I have also talked about. It seems to not be favored, but it has worked for me!
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Reminds me of one of the tenants of Sun Tzu's Art of War:
1. All Warfare is Deception
This applies to the MW hidden enchantment system especially, though after experiencing play for a while, I can probably predict which enchantments will be used and when. Still, you never know.
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A must read for all competitive gamers imo :P
I'm actually going to write something about Sun Tzu right now in a new topic, reddawn. Thank you for the glorious idea :3
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A must read for all competitive gamers imo :P
I'm actually going to write something about Sun Tzu right now in a new topic, reddawn. Thank you for the glorious idea :3
Hey no problem. While I think some of the pinned articles in the forums contain more than a little theorycraft, the eagerness to really dig into this game is always good, so a little theory is a small price to pay while we all get to the bottom of what makes MW tick competitively.
While I don't think all of Sun Tzu's teachings can be applied to MW, such as some of the tenants regarding politics, the ones concerning battlefield tactics (when to and not to fight) are very concise and important. This reveals itself mainly in the tension between knowing when to guard, when to attack, and when to get the hell out of the zone.
Hope your writing goes well! Also, try to make the post as concise and approachable as possible (not doubting you, just a friendly suggestion). There are some players on here that have what appear to be very technical backgrounds when it comes to writing, which can be pretty intimidating for a newer player who is trying to get a grasp on things. At the risk of seeming grandiose, I would really like the forums to be a place where players of all backgrounds can quickly access very readable material with which to improve their game efficiently.
Another source for any kind of gamer looking to adjust to a more competitive mindset is sirlin.net (http://sirlin.net). It mostly discusses video games, but the principles are perfectly applicable to other types of games.
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I'm actually discussing the Warriors Rules :D, which I do believe to be very applicable to both the New and veteran mage. It's going to be a longer and more comprensive article, as there are nine Rules total, but I do think it will help the community as a whole at the expense of a few hours of research and writing, which is totally worth it. Cheers man!
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Good reply. Honestly, I have only just begun learning how to play Go, so I'll defer to your greater experience. I'm not sure about the comparison to Eurogames... I'll have to think about it more. I guess to me, a Eurogame is all about competition over the same resources. Here, each player has their own mana pool, their own cards. I'm not saying I don't think there aren't comparisons to Eurogames, just that we probably are operating with very different understandings over what a Eurogame is.
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Oh most definitely. It's more of an idea than anything concrete, but I do seem some similarities. It's more of like an abstract/euro/ameritrash type deal.
To sum it up: It's just a big pile of awesome gaming.
Do you like Go? It's probably my favorite abstract of all time. It's just so... calming. Not like chess at all..
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I do like Go, quite a bit. I'm having trouble finding people to play in person, though. The internet is fine, but... I don't know. I seem to play different when I have to tactile aspect is there. That and it's more sociable, which I like a lot.
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Yeah, a big part of Go is the FtF interaction between opponents. You kind of lose that online, which is another big plus for Mage Wars for me, because you have that intimidation aspect in both games.
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Great post! I played the Forcemaster (me) vs. Warlord (friend) for the first time last night, and was taken down due to a swarm. After reading this post I realize it was because I made an early mistake that left me reacting to all of my opponent's moves, when the FM really needs to set the tempo so that she has time to reposition and attack. I'll be re-working my strategy with these concepts in mind.
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Yeah, a big part of Go is the FtF interaction between opponents. You kind of lose that online, which is another big plus for Mage Wars for me, because you have that intimidation aspect in both games.
I can still intimidate on line...
MWAH HAH HAH HARRRRRRR!!!
:o
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I read this post yesterday and today i kept thinking about gote and sente. Really nice way of thinking - thx for sharing it with us!
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These are some really neat comparisons. I'm relatively new to mage wars but have been playing Go for several years with my bro. Go has always been one of the greatest examples of game theory as far as give and take is concerned, but translating that same idea to sente and gote is kind-of genius! Even though the two ideas are loosely the same, they serve two greatly different models of thinking.
Anyway this has inspired new strategies and ideas for me. I've always known that several games can be alike at the core, but I have always thought of Mage Wars as more like chess. Though your thoughts make me think that Go is more applicable since it's such a game of pace and less about tactical positioning. (Not to say that positioning has no presence)
Thanks for your thoughts!
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This is awesome! I am an avid Go player myself and think that the strategies apply to so many other things in life! PS my username on KGS is Nealo
:)
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Thank you all so much for the kind words and gratitude shown in regards to this article. Feel free to message me any time with thoughts on how we can improve this method of thinking, and I would be more than happy to go into further detail on these thoughts, if any would be interested.
Thank you!
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My friend, you have just hit a point I ave been thinking about for a long time- MW is a Euro Game in disguise. But, before I go into that, I must first say that your observation of Go is not wrong, rather it's short sighted. Especially on games played on a 9x9 (blasphemy!), control of areas on a Go board constantly switches with opponents of equal skill.
But, why do I say it's a euro game? Because, you have all the classic "hits" of a Euro/abstract. Let's look at what BGG says about Euros http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Eurogame (http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Eurogame):
Most Eurogames share the following elements:
Player conflict is indirect and usually involves competition over resources or points. Combat is extremely rare.
Players are never eliminated from the game (All players are still playing when the game ends.)
There is very little randomness or luck. Randomness that is there is mitigated by having the player decide what to do after a random event happens rather than before. Dice are rare, but not unheard of, in a Euro.
The Designer of the game is listed on the game's box cover. Though this is not particular to Euros, the Eurogame movement seems to have started this trend. This is why some gamers and designers call this genre of games Designer Games.
Much attention is paid to the artwork and components. Plastic and metal are rare, more often pieces are made of wood.
Eurogames have a definite theme, however, the theme most often has very little to do with the gameplay. The focus instead is on the mechanics; for example, a game about space may be the same as a game about ancient Rome.
MW has almost all of these qualities, including resource management! Yes, there is direct conflict, but it is a means to an end. I often think of an opponent's life total as a point scoring mechanism. You don't score any points for killing creatures, only for killing the mage. There is VERY little luck in MW. OH BUT THE DICE, SIR! This is where statistics come. The law of averages state that the more times you test something, the closer of an average result you will get. This is never perfect, per say, but theoretically it can be. If you roll one damage die once, chances are 1 in 6 that you will roll a 2 critical. If you roll 2 dice, those stats have increased to 1 in 6 for both dice. But, as Mage Wars players, we strive to break the components (ie roll more than the number of dice that come with the game). Side note: at least I do, the feeling of rolling more dice than you are allowed to has a certain... rebellious feeling. but the point is, luck is still a factor, but it is greatly mitigated both mechanically and dynamically.
The other factor that makes it not so much a Euro is the fact that this game drips with theme. But, to talk about your specific post, which is Area control. What makes this a different sort of area control game than Go is that the areas are not apparent, at least at first glance, whereas in Go, you can normally get a good view of what areas will be fought over by midgame. different mages want different approaches. I know for the Wizard, I want to control the two middle squares, as I can cast all of my attack spells from that point. For the priestess, she wants to control about a third of the board (the first 4 zones lengthways). This is not static, rather it's to point out that Area control does have an interesting dynamic in game play.
the last sentence is very interesting, as it talks about baiting, which I have also talked about. It seems to not be favored, but it has worked for me!
Mage wars is really not a euro game at all.
Although it is a very strategic game, not based on luck. Luck can be VERY important. I have played games were I rolled the worst hits and no matter what you do, after a few horrible rolls its just game over. Ive had games that my dice were crazy hard and I even felt sorry for my opponent. Sometimed good or bad roll can make a game changing difference.
Examples I had:
- my perfectly healthy blood demon killed with 1 hurl boulder. 1 health would be enough to at least use his vampiric or react.
- in a game were I was dominating in every way the opponent trew 2 boulders, did 23 damage and killed me. Granted I did not have armor but at that point I really didnt need it yet since I was winning so hard.
- after my opponent trew a ton of fireballs at my tree, it had 1 life left and only 1 burn. It did zero damage. After that it healed 4 life during upkeep and I could react. The tree did not die.
Again, mage wars is not a game based on luck. But saying it is not important is simply wrong.
In most eurogames, the players are not completely different. Maybe some small starting stat differences... A fm and a warlord completely different.
No plastic pieces, but also no wooden pieces. Some small tokens and a board...
Direct combat rare? Yes, there is a ton next to the combat. But unless 1 is turtling and the other one is using dot, I see direct combat almost every round.
Saying the damage is somewhat like scoring points, I can see what you mean and its not completely wrong but you can heal easy. (Lowering the points of the opponent) you need a different amount of points. You can change the amount the opponent needs. Most eurogames count the number of points after x rounds. The 1 with the most wins. Not saying these things never happen in eurogames, but the combination of them all makes it kinda a weak analogy.
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I'm not sure where you drew that I said MW has no direct conflict. My exact quote was "Yes, there is Direct conflict, but it is a means to an ends". I think what you were drawing off of was the definition of euro games that i paraphrased in two three lines at the beginning of the post.
As well, you mention luck being an important factor. And indeed, it is. It is the unknown variable in a game based around knowing your opponent. It's the fog of war. Luck is important, but far more important is how you deal with that luck. What's the phrase? "Prepare for the worst, expect the best"? This applies to MW especially because things can go drastically wrong. For example, I had a game yesterday in which my Lair got Conquered. If that doesn't strike you out of left field, what does? Knowing how to handle that situation is far more important than the luck itself. The dice will even out. Bad play, and bad building, won't. Sure, you can argue that it is statistically probable for the dice not to be in your favor. But arguing with plastic cubes won't really get you anywhere... :P
As well, I don't mean to be pedantic, but the action markers and quickcast markers are both wooden components, as well as the channeling, mana, and life/damage cubes.
All that being said, I can definitely see where people think that MW is an ameritrash game. It's got dice, magic, team building, and complicated, corner rules that only apply sometimes every 20 years when the blue moon strikes the lake water at just right angle. And it is. But the thinking behind MW goes much deeper than move here, roll this, play this. And that's what I was trying to get at with the quoted post.
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Yeah, maybe I understood some things wrong. ::) But you do seem to under-value luck in mage wars? 1 extremely good/bad roll can change a game a lot. Handling a situation is extremely important to get back on your feet, I couldnt agree more, but it doesnt always work. Sometimes, the dice can hate you and there is nothing you can do about it. Luck is a thing you have in reality as wel, so I still love the fact that things dont always go as planned. And strat./tactics are far more important than luck. But luck is not a "small factor"
Btw: conquer is completely unrelated to luck. That was just an epic move from your opponent. :P
Ps: still dont think mw is even slightly a eurogame. Even the condition markers arent those typicall euro-kind pieces.
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I'm still struggling to see where I say luck is a small factor. I'm not undervaluing it, I just think that valuing luck in a game can only lead to bad decision making. The dice are an effect of the actions that you take. This means that if you never took any actions, you would never be able to roll any dice, right? Yes, you can roll 4 dice and wiff or crit on all of them. But the more dice that you roll, the more chance (luck) that you have to roll enough damage to achieve your goal. You can control the number of dice you roll, so you can control your luck much more than you could in most ameritrash games, such as Descent or Myth, just to name a few of the ones I really enjoy. As well, there are other ways to mitigate luck in the form of status effects. These are less controllable, but you can still altar the number of times you roll that status die.
I'm not under-valuing luck, I'm accepting it for what it is in order to control it as much as possible.
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We both agree then :P
I guess I totally misunderstood your previous post then. :o