Balanced full game arena format that's shorter?

[Sailor Vulcan]

The rules are the same as regular arena, with the following exceptions:

1) Smaller arena--The arena is 3x3 zones, with a secret passage

2) Setup rounds--For the first two rounds, you can't target or attack enemy objects.

3) (not sure if this rule would work) limit of two zone exclusive conjurations per zone.

4) (not sure if this rule is necessary.) At the start of the game, each player may turn their mage's starting zone or a zone adjacent to it into any terrain zone that's in Battlegrounds. (Altar of Oblivion and V'torraks are banned. Secret passages are not Terrain.)

[ringkichard]

That seems like a lot to remember. :?

[Sailor Vulcan]

I was just covering for corner cases. the basic gist of it is the same as regular setup rounds. you can't take any move actions, nor attack or target your enemy's stuff during the setup rounds. however, i wanted to make it allowed to attack or target your own stuff. just in case.

EDIT: you're completely right, a lot of that was just unnecessary. I just simplified it.

[echephron]

I like it. If you are picky, I see problems. For example, you cant run away from a wizards tower. doublewalling your opponent off is much easier too.

[Sailor Vulcan]

I like it. If you are picky, I see problems. For example, you cant run away from a wizards tower. doublewalling your opponent off is much easier too.

I figured the increased power of walls would balance out with the increased power of aggro caused by a smaller arena as well as the fact that every non-umovable creature is always in range of a wall that they can be bashed against.

As for wizard's tower, running away is no longer an option, but that's the same thing for pretty much every range 2 quick spell in this format (unless the caster is slow or restrained at range 3). Things like walls, obscured, armor defenses, tough, forcefield, conquer...heck you could use your full action to destroy the tower and then quickcast a zone exclusive conjuration of your own in its place. That tactic might actually be viable in this format where it wouldn't be in a larger arena.

[Kaarin]

As for wizard's tower, running away is no longer an option, but that's the same thing for pretty much every range 2 quick spell in this format (unless the caster is slow or restrained at range 3). Things like walls, obscured, armor defenses, tough, forcefield, conquer...heck you could use your full action to destroy the tower and then quickcast a zone exclusive conjuration of your own in its place. That tactic might actually be viable in this format where it wouldn't be in a larger arena.

Wizard's Tower isn't zone exclusive, so casting such conjuration won't help. Problem, that I see, is that You're always in casting range of attacks (e.g. Hurl Meteorite). Also not being able to attack for first two turns is turning away from normal arena format where You can attack from first round (currently there are at least two ways to do this). During those two setup rounds Druid could drop 4 zone exclusive conjurations and still have free spot in his starting zone. Since she casts conjurations in deployment phase there's very small time window to prevent this.
On the other hand Warlord will be crippled by outpost placement restrictions.

[Biblofilter]

I actually tried the 2 rounds of setup where attacks are banned. (in a standard arena) Did take longer than our regular games.

Didn't make the game any faster - imagine your opponent open with 2 Bridge Trolls or Intercept Guards.

Why let them have time to cast Battleforge and cast a ton of armor before you can get to them? - your making a Beastmaster Rush and a fast Wall of Thorns kill a lot harder (people hate WoT cheese a lot more than Wizards it seems, but)

Finally why make arena faster?

We do have Domination for fast games, don´t we?

[Kaarin]

If You want shorter game there's simple thing to do: turn dice from 0-2 to 1-3 and increase everything's health and armor by 50% (rounded down). Problem is that execution will not be so simple: spell that does 1 direct damage will still inflict 1 damage, while spell with 2 direct damage will inflict 3 damage when both have unchanged casting cost, so there's some balancing needed. For cards that stay in play You could just add markers.
I propose such change, because in current game there's minimal amount of dice to KO enemy, but no maximal even without healing and armor. Rolling blanks doesn't affect time left, while rolling 1-3 will make sure that attacking unarmored mage will bring game closer to end.

[Sailor Vulcan]

As for wizard's tower, running away is no longer an option, but that's the same thing for pretty much every range 2 quick spell in this format (unless the caster is slow or restrained at range 3). Things like walls, obscured, armor defenses, tough, forcefield, conquer...heck you could use your full action to destroy the tower and then quickcast a zone exclusive conjuration of your own in its place. That tactic might actually be viable in this format where it wouldn't be in a larger arena.

Wizard's Tower isn't zone exclusive, so casting such conjuration won't help. Problem, that I see, is that You're always in casting range of attacks (e.g. Hurl Meteorite). Also not being able to attack for first two turns is turning away from normal arena format where You can attack from first round (currently there are at least two ways to do this). During those two setup rounds Druid could drop 4 zone exclusive conjurations and still have free spot in his starting zone. Since she casts conjurations in deployment phase there's very small time window to prevent this.
On the other hand Warlord will be crippled by outpost placement restrictions.

Maybe a rule to allow up to 2 zone exclusives per zone? I'm not sure the warlord needs as many spaces for outposts in a 2x3 arena. Unless he wants to summon Talos. Then it's a problem. Maybe a 3x3 arena would be better for this.

Yeah I think it would.

Right wiz tower isn't zone exclusive. Forgot about that again lol.

[Sailor Vulcan]

I actually tried the 2 rounds of setup where attacks are banned. (in a standard arena) Did take longer than our regular games.

Didn't make the game any faster - imagine your opponent open with 2 Bridge Trolls or Intercept Guards.

Why let them have time to cast Battleforge and cast a ton of armor before you can get to them? - your making a Beastmaster Rush and a fast Wall of Thorns kill a lot harder (people hate WoT cheese a lot more than Wizards it seems, but)

Finally why make arena faster?

We do have Domination for fast games, don´t we?

What if I make it a 3x3 arena with only 1 setup round? That should fix the wall problem, the zone exclusive conjuration problem with the Druid and the Warlord and also the wiz tower issue. Not sure if that's fast enough though. Maybe if I include a secret passage, that would make gameplay as fast as it would be on a 2x3 arena if you're not counting walls, and since walls won't be powerful enough on 3x3 to balance out the secret passage and the smaller than standard arena size, the terrain rule might be really useful after all.

[Biblofilter]

Making the arena smaller seems to benefit mages that plays few/no conjurations, and makes the fast trait less good and the slow trait a much smaller problem. It probably also makes ranged creatures a lot stronger.
Im sure theres  a lot more like that.

To reduce time you could try:
Playing without the planning phase entirely - like in academy.

Reduce starting mage life? (and make mages level 3 or 4)
Smaller spellbooks?

Ban/limit conjurations?

I doubt you´d come up with something that doesnt affect the game "balance" and makes certain spellbooks/mages/strategies better or worse.

[Kaarin]

If You want shorter game then You either have to eliminate empty damage or lower mages' life.

I doubt you´d come up with something that doesnt affect the game "balance" and makes certain spellbooks/mages/strategies better or worse.

That's why I proposed changing dice earlier. With no empty damage on dice You will KO enemy faster even with increased life. Random effects won't need to be changed, only direct damage/healing/ and +/- life/armor should be changed.

[echephron]

I am working on a complex mod, but my specific thoughts on making a shorter game(and maximum length):
each mage has +4life. Each mage loses 2 life every upkeep. At round 10, you are at -6 life. By 15 rounds, its -16 so i can't see gamaes going much longer than that. Problems are sunfire amulet and priestess lifegain and devaluation of channel boosters. outside of those, it should really help. I figure its been thought of before, but I still think its one of the better options.

As for a smaller map, I am working on some stuff...

[echephron]

actually, what do you think of this map/movement mod:

   3x2 arena: reduced movement and range
   Two Setup Rounds during which: nothing can target or move outside starting zone during setup. Can't play artefacts.....actually, maybe i'd remove the setup rounds. i'm on the fence.

Range:
   All ranges -1 (minimum 0; range 0-1 becomes 0-0, 2-3 becomes 1-2, ect.; archers can now use strong attack versus melee in zone, which could be a problem; melees are harder to kite since you have to get one zone away to target them with most attacks/enchantments; conjurations must be cast into your zone since they become range 0-0, so only one zone exclusive may be cast during setup; some ranged 0-1 zone attacks(2?) become a problem since they will always hit you, so maybe they'd get an exception of some kind)
   Obscured redefined: no LOS if outside zone. obscured creatures with slow trait or a full action attack benefit.
   outposts may be in adjacent zones.

Movement:
   Fast redefined: can move 2 zones as full action but other creatures can't move twice. No more out->in->charge. Fast creatures can disengage much easier.
   Remove hindered from game
   walls lose extendable

what problems am i overlooking with this change? teleport cant teleport yourself 2 zones which makes force push more appealing.