Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Maverick on September 24, 2014, 07:33:58 PM
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How does everyone else handle promo use in their game groups? In the future I will likely be an ambassador and as prize support will be giving out promo cards to my players. That being said I know there is a stigma associated with using promo's for a lot of players. How do you guy's regulate their use? Would seem silly to right out ban them if that is the reward for showing up to events.
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They are not legal for tournament (because some are not balanced, yet), so I would not allow them to any event with a reward.
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We allow them at our events and tournaments. We've got a group of around a dozen or so who flitter in and out and nobody has ever expressed any desire to not allow them while many of our players seem puzzled by the ban on them elsewhere. We're not gonna give you something you can't use at one of our events at a later date. So yes we use them in our events in which prize support is available. However if other areas don't want to that's their business and they're entitled to their view. Best thing to do is to announce promos are allowed at an event well in advance. Also if anyone I play asks me to take my promos out I will and I suspect others in my area would do the same.
I use them in casual play as well and see them played in casual play. I know of at least two friends using Rain Cloud and Staff of Storms in Air Wizard books. I know pretty much everyone who has Alter of the Iron Guard puts it in a Priestess or Warlord book. I've seen Fire Elementals get played a few times and I fought a Temple High Guard before. I have a now that I think of it promo heavy Anvil Throne Warlord book with 2 Bloodwave Greatbowmen, Alter of the Anvil Guard, Critical Strike, and Vorpal Blade.
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They are not legal for tournament (because some are not balanced, yet), so I would not allow them to any event with a reward.
Are there official tournament rules posted somewhere? I could not find them anywhere.
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Errrr yes and no. It's posted somewhere that promos aren't tournament legal. Every event AW does like Origins and Gen Cons specifically state they aren't allowed at those events. However venues are free to do whatever they want far as I know. The supremely casual nature of Mage Wars tournaments pretty much mean you aren't playing for any super great prizes like in Magic or Hero Clix. They're neat but you won't get rich selling them online lol. Again big con events are an exception.
Which is how I'd like it to stay honestly. This game aint collectible after all. Oh time limits on rounds and tie breakers are up to individual venues to figure out too.
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It comes down to this for me:
1) Promo cards are not balanced for the current card pool.
2) Not everyone has access to promo cards.
These two facts makes them unfair to use in my opinion. With that said, if people want to use them in a casual game, then that is their business. The whole point is to have fun after all. I definitely would not allow them in any competitive event, and official tournaments ran by Arcane Wonders employees do not allow them.
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unfair! at least until i am given a bunch of promos...then i may be willing to change my mind
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Come to my charity tournament in November and I'll load you up with promos ;D
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Which promo cards aren't balanced? I've seen a ton of promos and while some are good, none break the game. The Wizard's Tower and The Forcemaster's ability to basically triple strike are all way worse than any promo card, I've seen.
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Have u seen the ballista? That is op. We use promo in our play group for causal play but even then we have to Nerf ballista to 2 Peirce 4 dice. Which is still very powerful.
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I would suggest announcing that promos are legal before you start an event. If people don't have the cards I would let them proxy. It makes for more fun games.
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Even I'll concede I wouldn't let Ballista into a game, but then I've never actually seen one in person.
Coshade you are 100% on the money there.
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The Ballista is the only promo card, that could use some balancing. All other promo cards are fine and a (good) tournament should allow players to use them.
There is nothing unfair about it when a player, who has participated in several tournaments with promo rewards, has a greater card pool compared to a new player.
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There is nothing unfair about it when a player, who has participated in several tournaments with promo rewards, has a greater card pool compared to a new player.
So, people who discovered the game earlier should be given an advantage over new comers? And people who are more skilled in tournaments should be granted a greater advantage beyond their natural skills? How is this fair?
I don't see how anyone can possibly argue that promo cards are fair to use. A fair playing field means all players have equal opportunity. Promo cards are by definition a restricted resource that not everybody has access to. The only way to make the use of promo cards fair would be to allow proxies. Which is actually fine in a casual setting, but I doubt it would be kosher in a tournament with prize support.
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Lets keep it civil ok? First it's fair if you let proxies in casual sure. At a tournament you can provide access to your promo cards to new players for use at the tournament. Promos are only restricted if the venue makes them so. Otherwise it's a very simple problem to get around honestly. I can speak from experience that they do not prove to be a problem in a prized tournament environment so long as you A: Announce their legality in advance and B: Make it known they can be borrowed from the venue. This gives people plenty of time to practice using them via proxies and access to the genuine article once they arrive. Then you simply give them the promo cards they used as a participation prize. Not like you don't get plenty of copies of each in an OP Kit :)
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Promo cards are by definition a restricted resource that not everybody has access to.
Every card is by definition a restricted ressource, because you need money to buy the expansion packs.
So your argument is not working.
And even if someone uses promocards and the opponent does not. It's still fair, because promocards are not unbalanced.
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The Ballista is the only promo card, that could use some balancing. All other promo cards are fine and a (good) tournament should allow players to use them.
There is nothing unfair about it when a player, who has participated in several tournaments with promo rewards, has a greater card pool compared to a new player.
The storm staff too is not balanced.
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Yes, it's too weak. Why spending 7 Mana at the start of the game for an item, that probably gets dissolved before used once?!
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Every card is by definition a restricted ressource, because you need money to buy the expansion packs.
So your argument is not working.
And even if someone uses promocards and the opponent does not. It's still fair, because promocards are not unbalanced.
Promo cards are a money sink compared to the prices of the expansions when you look at the price per card.
Also the trouble (time and money) of getting sufficient the promos is not worth it to everyone.
I just want a battle of mage wars on equal terms.
And in case you forgot - everyone being on equal foot is one the foundations of Mage Wars.
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Yes, it's too weak. Why spending 7 Mana at the start of the game for an item, that probably gets dissolved before used once?!
Why spend 6 mana on a chest armor that will get dissolved/corroded before it get used once?
That's a stupid comment.
A.wizard will have a nullify on him and another on a creature with a Transfusion to protect it. You won't dissolve it.
And that staff is nothing weak. It increase the damage and the chance to stun you of any lightning. It is very powerful.
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That's a stupid comment.
A.wizard will have a nullify on him and another on a creature with a Transfusion to protect it. You won't dissolve it.
If you waste actions to build up such a nullify "trick", you have lost the game anyway against good opponents. In over 100 games on OCTGN i've never seen someone using this "trick" and cannot imagine how anyone could fall for that.
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Even disregarding the (probably) broken Ballista, there are quite a few powerful promo cards.
-Gravikor
-Circle of Light
-Plagued
-Altar of the Iron Guard
-Summoning Circle
-Altar of Peace
-Raincloud
-Mordok's Tome
-Temple High Guard
Each one of those cards is at least potentially powerful within a niche. Some of them might even completely shake up the meta or make certain Mages less viable.
I can speak from experience that they do not prove to be a problem in a prized tournament environment so long as you A: Announce their legality in advance and B: Make it known they can be borrowed from the venue.
That would be the only situation in which I could see promo cards being used fairly. I personally don't think a handful of extra cards warrants that much effort, but if tournament organizers feel differently, I don't have a problem with it.
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That's a stupid comment.
A.wizard will have a nullify on him and another on a creature with a Transfusion to protect it. You won't dissolve it.
If you waste actions to build up such a nullify "trick", you have lost the game anyway against good opponents. In over 100 games on OCTGN i've never seen someone using this "trick" and cannot imagine how anyone could fall for that.
You mean *action*. Because he is spending 4 actions:
Storm
Nullify
transfusion
Nullify
You spend 3 actions:
1) Destroy nullify
2) avoid falling for the nullyfing trick (not sure how you will get around it - im looking forward to hear that but it will take an action regardless.)
3) dissolve the staff
I dont think coming 1 action behind = lose game.
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That's a stupid comment.
A.wizard will have a nullify on him and another on a creature with a Transfusion to protect it. You won't dissolve it.
If you waste actions to build up such a nullify "trick", you have lost the game anyway against good opponents. In over 100 games on OCTGN i've never seen someone using this "trick" and cannot imagine how anyone could fall for that.
Its not because you didnt see something that make it not good. Charmania (the best player) used that "trick" as far as I know. And it is not really a trick where someone fall for it. It is just a "for an extra action I have 2 Nullify/Jinx". It deny Dissolve (or any quick spell with Jinx) to your opponent. Any good Wizard has a Jinx bomb setuped because it is very powerful to deny your opponent its actions when you decide to.
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That's a stupid comment.
A.wizard will have a nullify on him and another on a creature with a Transfusion to protect it. You won't dissolve it.
If you waste actions to build up such a nullify "trick", you have lost the game anyway against good opponents. In over 100 games on OCTGN i've never seen someone using this "trick" and cannot imagine how anyone could fall for that.
You mean *action*. Because he is spending 4 actions:
Storm
Nullify
transfusion
Nullify
You spend 3 actions:
1) Destroy nullify
2) avoid falling for the nullyfing trick (not sure how you will get around it - im looking forward to hear that but it will take an action regardless.)
3) dissolve the staff
I dont think coming 1 action behind = lose game.
And you can't do that in 1 turn, giving me time yo set it up again.
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-Gravikor
Great card to beat enemies, that only focus on flying creatures. And even when played, if does not mean the flyers are already dead. The mana cost seems ok to me.
-Circle of Light
Good card against unliving. There are already several Damage Barrier enchantments released, so this should not be unbalanced.
-Plagued
Mana intensive enchantment, that can evaded easily after beeing revealed (after dealt damage once).
-Altar of the Iron Guard
Cheap comjuration with very limited use, when there are conjurations or creatures spread all over the gameboard.
-Summoning Circle
Never seen it used on OCTGN ... probably for a reason. Could work once in a game with a Hydra but you can easily move away from that zone. Seems not overpoweredto me.
-Altar of Peace
Good Card, but harms yourself too ... looks like a different Suppression Orb.
-Raincloud
I was very excited about that card, when it came out. But i stopped using it, because the initial cost is too high. May help in some matchups, but not in all.
-Mordok's Tome
Not very useful for a Wizard, that can prepare two cards and always change his mind and attack with arcane zap anyway. Never seen it beeing used.
-Temple High Guard
This guy is not bad, but if i had the chance i would summon rather a Knight of Westlock (for offense) or a Guardian Angel (for defense)
I do not see overpowered cards here.
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You mean *action*. Because he is spending 4 actions:
Storm
Nullify
transfusion
Nullify
You spend 3 actions:
1) Destroy nullify
2) avoid falling for the nullyfing trick (not sure how you will get around it - im looking forward to hear that but it will take an action regardless.)
3) dissolve the staff
I dont think coming 1 action behind = lose game.
Maybe, and what if i just kick your ass with melee, my creatures attack you, i just summon all my stuff with a spawnpoint and use my quickcast to do something unimportant you dont want to use your trick on?
So you wasted your actions and you do not get any benefit out of it. There is always a situation, where a trick might be useful, but there are always several other situations, where it's not.
But this is not the topic :)
Let's talk about Promo Cards.
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Promo Card Overview:
Wall of Force
Summoning Circle
Wall of Poison Gas
Vorpal Blade
Temple High Guard
Spiked Armor
Ring of Healing
Sandstorm
Pharaoh's Cheetah
Raincloud
Plagued
Oscuda
Spiked Buckler
Staff of Storms
Sunfire Burst
Mountain Ram
Mana Vampirism
Lightning Strike
Holy Strike
Gloves of Skill
Heart of Gravikor
Hurl Meteorite
Kumanjaran Leopard
Joseph Trublood, High Cleric
Gravikor
Leviathan Scale Armor
Gale Force Ring
Flame Strike
Fire Elemental
Lightning Beetle
Mordok's Tome
Victorian Griffin
Clear Mind
Bloodwave Greatbow
Critical Strike
Chitin Armor
Death's Head Scorpion
Circle of Light
Debilitate
Bloodthirsty Strike
Elfric's Life Ring
Asto Vidatu, Angel Slayer
Dragon's Breath
Ballista
Dragonclaw Wolverine
Altar of the Iron Guard
Altar of Peace
Acid Blast
Windstorm
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You mean *action*. Because he is spending 4 actions:
Storm
Nullify
transfusion
Nullify
You spend 3 actions:
1) Destroy nullify
2) avoid falling for the nullyfing trick (not sure how you will get around it - im looking forward to hear that but it will take an action regardless.)
3) dissolve the staff
I dont think coming 1 action behind = lose game.
Maybe, and what if i just kick your ass with melee, my creatures attack you, i just summon all my stuff with a spawnpoint and use my quickcast to do something unimportant you dont want to use your trick on?
So you wasted your actions and you do not get any benefit out of it. There is always a situation, where a trick might be useful, but there are always several other situations, where it's not.
But this is not the topic :)
Let's talk about Promo Cards.
Your creatures do nothing, they are all stuned by my +4 on yellow dice Chain Ligthning from the Staff of Storm.
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And Corrosive Orchid cannot be nullified. We can go back and forth on hypotheticals all day. At the end of the day there are two reasons why a promo card may not have been printed yet. First, it didn't fit thematically in a set when we were able to print it. Second, we are concerned about it's balance and want to look closely at it.
We're committed to printing all of the promo cards in sets, eventually. As for the question of balance, I am happy with the balance on most of our promo cards. That said, I'm happy to allow people to use promos in anything but a serious tournament. Yes, they're an x-factor, but on the whole I want people to be able to play with all the cool cards they have. Now tournaments are another story. That is meant to be a standardized format, and as such I generally would not allow them.
In my hometown, I helped organize a Breast Cancer Brawl for Warmachine/Hordes. This type of very casual charity event is exactly the type of event that I would allow promos. Now, personally I would require a donation.
At the end, it's a matter of the purpose of the event. Is it meant to just be casual fun? then allow them. Is this meant to be serious competition? then don't.
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At the end, it's a matter of the purpose of the event. Is it meant to just be casual fun? then allow them. Is this meant to be serious competition? then don't.
In my opinion, they shouldn't be allowed in any type of event, tournament or casual.
There is nothing stopping someone from going to a casual event with an entire strategy based around an overpowered promo card, AND THEY EXIST (i.e. ballista), and completely ruining the play experience of all his/her opponents. When a card isn't part of legal play it extends the card pool to a place where most players, and definitely not casual players, can't respond to it properly and will undoubtedly be frustrated losing to it in the end.
That said, if both players in a casual match agree to use promos I think they're fair game.
In the future I would very much like to see not only "promo packs" but some other kind of "booster" type pack that is balanced to fit into the current card pool. I'm sure this would take some work, but it could almost be like what Fantasy Flight does with Netrunner or CoC, etc. They could fill the gaps between expansions, keep interest high, and I would pay high margins on them. Just an idea; I'm sure you guys have already thought of it.
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At the end, it's a matter of the purpose of the event. Is it meant to just be casual fun? then allow them. Is this meant to be serious competition? then don't.
This is pretty much the crux of it here. I'm allowing promos for an extra charge at my charity event but then I'm also going to personally make sure everyone who attends walks out with prizes. Were I hosting Gen Con I admit I probably wouldn't allow promos cause well...it's Gen Con it's about the one non-casual tournament I see with Mage Wars. Winner at Gen Con walks out THE Champ and as far as I'm concerned the best there is for a year so yeah stakes are kinda high.
As an aside on the Staff of Storms: Beatable. Very beatable. It won't break a block except with Arc Lightning and that means you're in Dissolve range and I don't care if you got a Nullify, if I want your jank destroyed I'm getting through the Nullify. That's what Seeking Dispel and Decoy are for.
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I'm not entirely sure, but I suspect that some people might be overestimating the impact of card access on winning in tournaments as opposed to skill. Certainly having access to cards no one else does gives a player an extra advantage. Owning more expansions than your opponents also gives you an extra advantage over them. The question is, is the advantage of having access to promo cards big enough to make any significant difference to who wins and who loses?
I think that if you are playing against cards you're unfamiliar with because you've never used them or played against someone who was using them before, then you'll be at a disadvantage. If you've played against them on OCTGN then you have a better grasp of how they interact with the metagame and are more able to respond to those cards with non-promo cards.
The likely problem with promo cards I think is that people don't have equal access to knowledge about how those cards interact with the metagame. If you don't play on octgn and you don't own promo cards and neither do any of your opponents, you will not know or be able to know how to deal with promo cards ahead of time, and no amount of practice before the tournament will help you against them; you simply would have to think on the fly when it came time to play against them. Your opponent, who does have access to promo cards, does not necessarily need to think on the fly so much during the game, since they already are able to be familiar with all of the cards in the already released sets, including the cards in your spellbook.
Although I don't know for sure, it's just speculation. Someone would have to test it, like thus:
1. Conduct at least 4 same or similarly-sized tournaments in the same location (preferably a larger number of players) with promos prohibited.
a. Keep track of who wins, who makes it to the top 4 and finals, and what spellbooks they were using.
2. Conduct at least 4 more same or similarly sized tournaments in the same location as the first 4 and about the same size turnout as well, with promos allowed.
a. Keep track of who wins, who makes it to the top 4 and finals, what spellbooks they were using, and whether they used promos or not. If you want to do even better, be sure to write down which promos they used and the quantity of each.
All tournaments in the test must be conducted within the same "block" there should be no sets released from the beginning to the end of the test. If a set is released in the middle of the test, stop the test. There must be a 1:1 ratio between tournaments in step 1 and tournaments in step 2. Drop data from any tournaments that don't have a counterpart in the other step.
It would be nice to get to the bottom of this. I think we'd all like to know how much of a difference promo cards actually make, and this is the only way to tell for sure that I know of.
What do you think?
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Wow, so I definitely called it by saying this was a taboo subject. To me I think it is unfair to people who acquire promo's by participating in organized play to be denied the right to use them. I also think it should be perfectly fine to proxy them for other players who have a more limited selection. The goal of organized play is to encourage people to seek these promo's out as an incentive to actually show up and play. Denying their use directly conflicts with the whole purpose of the promo's existence and the incentive they provide.
I am hesitant to disagree with the marketing and design process of a company whose products I so very much enjoy but this is a very real problem. The incentive to play (ie. prize support) for the game is a taboo subject within the community for that game. As opposed to negative feedback I will attempt to offer solutions.
1. Release every promo currently out in a near future expansion. The theme of the expansion should just be "Promo Cards". Get them out there and make them available to everyone. Officially legalize them for organized play. As the cards are already designed with art and everything this should be inexpensive and very profitable compared to other released sets.
2. In addition to the above make all future promo cards alternate art versions of currently released cards instead of new card releases. It will still be cool enough to be sought after but will not remove the incentive of people to go to live organized events. More people at organized events = bigger community = more sales for company. Help your Ambassador's help you.
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I do not see overpowered cards here.
I never said they were overpowered. I said the Ballista is probably broken (aka overpowered), but the other cards were still powerful. There's a difference.
Even without being overpowered, these cards could have a drastic impact on the meta. Gravikor could potentially have wrecked the Straywood Aviary build that won GenCon this year. Plagued can potentially ruin swarm builds (especially wolf packs led by Redclaw). Altar of the Iron Guard combined with Temple High Guards and Defends could theoretically create a fortress of death.
None of that is necessarily bad or broken, as long as everyone is given the same tools.
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Set a straw man up and knock it down. This has never been controversial. In sanctioned tournaments, only officially released cards are allowed. Has been like this since 2012 and not one post here to ever complain about this being the rule. i.e. no debate.
Now casual or non-official tournament play its your world and you get to make/break/bend the rules as you see fit. I greatly admire what and how Silverclaw has done in his neck of the woods, his tournaments allow them and I think he does it in a manner that does very well to support the tournaments and the promos that are allowed (if you look at his announcement, you will see there are promo's allowed (has access too) vs. which ones are not (the ones he doesn't)). We don't see eye to eye on all things but he has done this very well.
If this is about access to promo's then that is a different topic that can be discussed in a new thread.
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The main thing to do with promos is to learn how they play as was mentioned earlier. Use proxies or read about them. I've seen the following and can explain:
-Plagued. This card IS nice but I normally don't play it as much as you'd think. I like to use it on holy turtle builds. It gets Dispelled pretty quickly like any other annoying Enchantment. Against a Necromancer obviously it's worthless against almost any other mage you could be casting Ghoul Rot to kill the mage. It's really only useful against swarms and that's assuming they're thick enough to not break up the swarm.
-Temple High Guard. We he(is it a He? It's an elf I can't tell) doesn't have Intercept so you still get to play Whack-A-Angel cause they're not taking out Guardian Angels for them. You can get around a Guard though honestly. There's about half a dozen ways to do it.
-Alter of the Iron Guard. Honestly if anything is going to be called "broken" this would be it lol. It's really nice knowing that if you're going to be summoning into your zone this turn to know they got your back. However it's a pretty breakable Conjuration and it's normally cooler early on obviously than later.
-Staff of Storms. You're likely to get ONE count them ONE nasty shot off with it. That shot could be devastating granted but it takes a lot of set up and your opponent probably sees it coming a mile away. You get better results nickel and dime your attacks with it. In Mage Wars if I want to destroy your equipment then I'm going to.
-Fire Elemental. Honestly underrated because people see "Oh Lightning and Water will destroy it" yeah....but if you don't have any or they're all cast life bites fighting this guy. He's awesome as a Guard actually. Still it's beatable with a Cloak of Elements and some armor.
-Bloodwave Greatbowman. My favorite promo card to be sure. It is ridiculously easy to give them that +2 Piercing and it can go so far to helping you take out the big guns. Why Dissolve their chest piece when your range attackers can ignore it? However without support in the form of a Guard or Fortified Position they die fast.
-Hurl Meteor. Cool card no doubt. Rolling that many dice just makes you feel powerful and all crushing! Used with Akiros Favor and you have something just as devastating as a Staff of Storms/Lightning Bolt almost. Still it's a Full Cast so it's not going on a Wizards Tower so that helps. Probably won't see more than one of these in a match so if you're armored or otherwise protected you can take the hit and keep going.
-Rain Cloud. People cast this in response to one mage: The Adramelech Warlock. Yeah -2 Acid is cool but come on Acid Ball Corrodes on a 1 so is it really that helpful? It's a pain to destroy cause it flies and it's Incorporeal. That also means however it can't be Guarded so just shoot it with lightning.
-Joseph Trueblood. I've fought him. Wasn't impressed. I guess he could be awesome with the right build but nobody I know has kept him in their book past one game of actually using him.
-Mana Vampirism. If you're a Wizard then you already have enough ways to mana screw people. If you're a Wizard it's just one more way to annoy people and not even your best. If you're not a Wizard then stop trying to act like a Wizard.
-Wall of Force. Yeah normally Force Masters hate walls cause they get between them and smacking people. Actually casting a wall is unusual for them. What do they have they'd like to protect? If they cast it so they can bash people into it then they might as well pay for a deadlier wall.
I've used the Critical Strike/Vorpal Blade combo and it was cool. I never had to look for a can opener at least.
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Most people forget the Alter of Peace (http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1794780/mage-wars-altar-peace-promo-card) affects attack spells.
For those that want to see a bunch of the promos BGG has a much of images
(http://boardgamegeek.com/geeksearch.php?action=search&objecttype=boardgame&q=Mage+Wars&B1=Go)
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I hadn't seen Sandstorm or Spiked Buckler before. Those are nice cards thanks for sharing Shadow.
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Even if you don't want to play online, the spellbook builder used in OCTGN has all of the currently released promos available for your viewing pleasure and spellbook building pleasure. You can even sort on multiple different card categories....
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Even without being overpowered, these cards could have a drastic impact on the meta. Gravikor could potentially have wrecked the Straywood Aviary build that won GenCon this year.
Exactly! And that's why we need them. So a simple build with so many flying units cannot dominate anymore ... and there are other builds like this (Priestress with some Guardian Angels f.e.).
But of course most of the mages need 4 Spellpoints to include this card in their books. They need 8 Mana to play it. And it can be destroyed. I do not see a huge impact on the meta game. Just more options to play with.
Plagued can potentially ruin swarm builds (especially wolf packs led by Redclaw).
1 Dispel or 1 Push in the final qc phase will end your spread of plague very quickly.
Altar of the Iron Guard combined with Temple High Guards and Defends could theoretically create a fortress of death.
What's a Fortress of Death? High Guards are only effective, when they use their special ability ... they have to be on guard for this and you need to attack them. So don't. Their normal attack roll with 4 dice is not so scary without their special ability, right?
I think that if you are playing against cards you're unfamiliar with because you've never used them or played against someone who was using them before, then you'll be at a disadvantage. If you've played against them on OCTGN then you have a better grasp of how they interact with the metagame and are more able to respond to those cards with non-promo cards.
The likely problem with promo cards I think is that people don't have equal access to knowledge about how those cards interact with the metagame. If you don't play on octgn and you don't own promo cards and neither do any of your opponents, you will not know or be able to know how to deal with promo cards ahead of time, and no amount of practice before the tournament will help you against them; you simply would have to think on the fly when it came time to play against them. Your opponent, who does have access to promo cards, does not necessarily need to think on the fly so much during the game, since they already are able to be familiar with all of the cards in the already released sets, including the cards in your spellbook.
This! If people would know all the promo cards and think about how these promo cards can be used against their own builds, maybe see it in action (on OCTGN they are all available), they would not be against them, because they garantee more variety in gameplay.
I still miss any good argument against any Promo card apart from the Ballista.
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1 Dispel or 1 Push in the final qc phase will end your spread of plague very quickly.
True, but I think Plagued will best be used liberally. One of them isn't that threatening, but 3(or even 4) of them together are (granted, you are tempting a Destroy Magic at that point). Even if only 2 creatures are getting hurt per turn, it still has the same efficiency as Ghoul Rot (2 damage per turn for 6 total mana). And if the enemy mage responds by breaking up their swarm, that's still a success (since it will hopefully cause them to lose momentum, as well as making it easier to pick off individual creatures).
What's more, it should cost you significantly less mana to kill creatures than it costs to summon them. For example, a timber wolf costs 9 mana to summon, and possesses 10 health. Assuming 4 of them are sharing a space, that's 36 total mana investment. Casting (and activating) 4 Plagued uses 24 mana. Assuming the wolves don't scatter, the curses aren't dispelled, (etc.), all of the wolves will be dead in 3 turns (for all intents and purposes, 2 turns if you reveal all of the curses at the very end of a round). That's obviously not a full-proof strategy (nothing should be), but it can be pretty effective.
The real downside of Plagued is that it effects all creatures in the zone, including your own. That is interesting, since it means that it is a curse meant for the Necromancer, not the Warlock. Plop down some zombies, throw out some Plagues, and sit back as your zombie horde chases down the scattered enemy forces.
What's a Fortress of Death? High Guards are only effective, when they use their special ability ... they have to be on guard for this and you need to attack them. So don't. Their normal attack roll with 4 dice is not so scary without their special ability, right?
I see it like this: Guardian Angels (as well as Panzerguards) are great at wasting time. They are hard to kill, and generally force you to commit 2 creatures to an attack instead of 1 (of use some method to temporarily get rid of them, like Force Push). But they aren't really threatening. A counter-attack of 3 dice is only meaningful against something with low health and no armor. If you have to attack them, it's annoying but not usually life-threatening.
Temple High Guards, on the other hand, are guards which can actually murder stuff. If you attack one with a small or medium creature, it is going to suffer heavily (and if it dies, it doesn't even deal any damage). The Temple High Guards do suffer a bit from their lack of Intercept (and I'm not sure why they don't have Reach, considering they are using halberds...), but they are still useful for defending stuff against melee creatures (even if they can't go toe to toe against the really hard-hitting stuff).
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Ok, but in the end, you're saying (and i agree with it): Every card can be good in certain situations and bad in others. It's the same with promo cards.
Why i personally like promo cards? It makes my opponents less predictable and is more challenging to me. That's why i'm looking forward to any new expansion and hope promo cards will be released soon as normal cards, when ever they fit in the theme of the expansion.
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An Halberd doesnt allow you to Reach the sky ;)
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Ok, but in the end, you're saying (and i agree with it): Every card can be good in certain situations and bad in others. It's the same with promo cards.
Why i personally like promo cards? It makes my opponents less predictable and is more challenging to me. That's why i'm looking forward to any new expansion and hope promo cards will be released soon as normal cards, when ever they fit in the theme of the expansion.
If thats the case, then you should just make up your own cards and ask your opponenet to do the same.
Then you will be in for a real surprise.
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That's why i'm looking forward to any new expansion and hope promo cards will be released soon as normal cards, when ever they fit in the theme of the expansion.
I definitely agree. I barely even know what Battlegrounds is yet, and I'm still impatient for it. My stance is just that, if promo cards are used competitively, they should be available to everyone equally. That's all.
An Halberd doesnt allow you to Reach the sky ;)
Talos' halberd does. Although I have no idea how tall the statue is supposed to be... ;)
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An Halberd doesnt allow you to Reach the sky ;)
Talos' halberd does. Although I have no idea how tall the statue is supposed to be... ;)
Grande.
But seriously I always imagined something like the Colossus of Rhodes.
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Why are we still debating how allowing/prohibiting promo cards in tournaments will impact the metagame when we can find out fairly easily? Just try it both ways and compare.
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Set a straw man up and knock it down. This has never been controversial. In sanctioned tournaments, only officially released cards are allowed. Has been like this since 2012 and not one post here to ever complain about this being the rule. i.e. no debate.
I am not sure who you play with but it is a big debate in my area. I came here asking for advice and it was a big debate on here too. How is me identifying that and recommending a constructive solution in any way interpreted as a straw-man argument? You would have to be blind not to see the debate happening in this thread.
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Set a straw man up and knock it down. This has never been controversial. In sanctioned tournaments, only officially released cards are allowed. Has been like this since 2012 and not one post here to ever complain about this being the rule. i.e. no debate.
I am not sure who you play with but it is a big debate in my area. I came here asking for advice and it was a big debate on here too. How is me identifying that and recommending a constructive solution in any way interpreted as a straw-man argument? You would have to be blind not to see the debate happening in this thread.
It might of been a hot discussion of topic in your area but it has been settled here for the longest. Now opening up topic such as this will always invite others thoughts, but still doesn't make it a big debate "here" as you suggested. I personally love playing with Promo's and think they add spice to game.
Not trying impugn your integrity at all these are just my thoughts....