Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone

[wtcannonjr]

Didnt read the entire tread, but the controller of the creature decides whenever there are timing issues. However, he cannot force you to reveal an enchantment thus even though the rules state this, in practice it is the controller of the enchantment who decides.

the controller decides during upkeep. this is not upkeep.

the trap and the Caltrops are mandatory.
the enchantment is revealed and the Caltrops attacks. I think that if the player with initiative controles one and only one of them, this one will trigger first.

Have you checked the movement action and Mandatory action sections under RAW version 4 for any clues? This sounds like an interaction of these two rules and I know the movement action was defined with specific steps in that document to help with these types of questions. If I understand your question you want to resolve whether an opponents Teleport Trap (a mandatory reveal) triggers prior to your creature being attacked by your or another opponent's Mangler Caltrops when both are in the same zone. So the general case involves two mandatory actions which are each controlled by a different player.

To expand on the two player example what happens when both spells are controlled by different opponents of the player taking the move action?  If the movement and mandatory action section of the rules/supplement don't address this case, then we have two choices for determining the sequence of events triggering.

1. Controller of the creature decides the sequence.
2. Controller of each spell decides in clockwise order from player with Initiative.

A related question then comes to mind, but may be covered under mandatory actions in the supplement. If two or more mandatory actions are triggered and each are owned by one or more opponents and option 2 above is used to resolve the sequence of resolution, then does each opponent decide the sequence of their mandatory actions or simply resolves the spell since it is a mandatory action? For example, if there are 3 spells to resolve each controlled by a different opponent  (think 4 player match)  can the first player decide that their spell triggers 2ND, the next player selects their spell to resolve last and the last player must resolve their spell first in the sequence of 3 since they were last in initiative order

[Zuberi]

Timing is easy and covered by the base rules. If both the trap and the caltrops are controlled by the same person, they can choose the order of resolution. If they are controlled by different people, you have a timing issue and the person with initiative decides the order of resolution.

Now, if the teleport trap is chosen to occur first, we do not have an answer on if the caltrops will get to attack. I have been talking with Aaron about this again recently actually, and he is going to discuss it with Bryan. The same issue applies to a new spell in PvS, forget the name, which brought it back to light and we will get an answer. It's just a rare edge case that got forgotten for awhile.

[Laddinfance]

Timing is easy and covered by the base rules. If both the trap and the caltrops are controlled by the same person, they can choose the order of resolution. If they are controlled by different people, you have a timing issue and the person with initiative decides the order of resolution.

Now, if the teleport trap is chosen to occur first, we do not have an answer on if the caltrops will get to attack. I have been talking with Aaron about this again recently actually, and he is going to discuss it with Bryan. The same issue applies to a new spell in PvS, forget the name, which brought it back to light and we will get an answer. It's just a rare edge case that got forgotten for awhile.

Bed of Urchins.

[exid]

Timing is easy and covered by the base rules. If both the trap and the caltrops are controlled by the same person, they can choose the order of resolution. If they are controlled by different people, you have a timing issue and the person with initiative decides the order of resolution.

I can't see where you find that the player with initiative chooses.
In the rules, page 6, it's writte: "the player with initiative goes first whenever you must determinethe order of events"

Now, if the teleport trap is chosen to occur first, we do not have an answer on if the caltrops will get to attack. I have been talking with Aaron about this again recently actually, and he is going to discuss it with Bryan. The same issue applies to a new spell in PvS, forget the name, which brought it back to light and we will get an answer. It's just a rare edge case that got forgotten for awhile.

Thank you! I'm looking forward to this!

[Zuberi]

The codex entry for initiative says it decides all timing issues. In this case it's not a matter of who goes first, neither player is going/acting. Both effects trigger simultaneously and it's an issue of which order do things get resolved in. That requires a decision to be made and whoever has initiative is the one to make it.

[exid]

The codex entry for initiative says it decides all timing issues. In this case it's not a matter of who goes first, neither player is going/acting. Both effects trigger simultaneously and it's an issue of which order do things get resolved in. That requires a decision to be made and whoever has initiative is the one to make it.

I see your point: these are 2 effects, no actions from one player or another.
But then, why would it be differnent if the same player would controle both Cantrops and trap? (2 effects that trigger automatically, no action, why woudn't the player with initiative choose, even if the other controls both objects?)

[ringkichard]

Oy. Didn't we do this once before?

[Zuberi]

In general, if everything being discussed is controlled by the same player, then they have control over the things being discussed and can make all decisions regarding them. Basically, there's no conflict in that case. It's only an issue when both players control something and need to decide how they occur in relation to each other. For example, if I controlled 2 effects in the zone and my opponent controlled one, I would still get to choose which of my two effects happens first and which happens second, but the player with Initiative would decide when my opponent's effect happens in relation to my two (before both of them, after both of them, or in between). They do not, however, get to dictate my choices for things that I control.

If we both controlled two effects, then I would decide the order of my effects and my opponent would decide the order of their effects, then the player with Initiative would decide how these separate orders of events compare to each other. The rules don't require you to plan everything out in advance though, and typically such would not be practical, so usually the person with initiative will simply choose who gets the first effect, see what choice is made and what happens, then choose who gets the second, etc.

Relevant rules: Codex entry for Controller and Codex entry for Initiative. Also page 20 of the Arena Rulebook under traps may be of interest.

[ringkichard]

That's how it works in the Upkeep phase, but isn't it different during the rest of the round?

[ringkichard]

Specifically, during the upkeep phase, you control the order of the effects that affect the objects you control. If an effect affects multiple objects controlled by different players or an object that isn't controlled by a player like an orb, (or -- I assume -- if an effect occurs that doesn't effect any objects but instead does something to a zone or whatever) the player with Initiative choses the order in which things happen.

Outside of the Upkeep phase, I was under the impression that the player with Initiative just decided everything regardless.

--

There's a bit of a rules issue with cards like Teleport Trap. The effect teleports the creature, but it also destroys the trap. So even if the creature somehow triggered Teleport Trap during the Upkeep, hypertechnically it's possible that the player with Initiative would always decide when the trap ability happened.

[Zuberi]

The best place to point you to is the codex entry for controller. You make all decisions for objects and spells you control at all times. Your opponent can't dictate how your objects and spells work. This includes when you use them. The only time initiative matters in regards to timing is when there's a timing issue, which only happens when you want to see when two effects with different controllers happens in relation to each other. These are general rules. Upkeep isn't really special, it's just highlighted because it is the most likely place to require these rules since the whole phase is kind of simultaneous. They put a little bit of emphasis on the section for traps as well, but the general rules in the codex for controller and for initiative are actually always true.

[wtcannonjr]

The best place to point you to is the codex entry for controller. You make all decisions for objects and spells you control at all times. Your opponent can't dictate how your objects and spells work. This includes when you use them. The only time initiative matters in regards to timing is when there's a timing issue, which only happens when you want to see when two effects with different controllers happens in relation to each other. These are general rules. Upkeep isn't really special, it's just highlighted because it is the most likely place to require these rules since the whole phase is kind of simultaneous. They put a little bit of emphasis on the section for traps as well, but the general rules in the codex for controller and for initiative are actually always true.

And the same for multiplayer game? I.e. the player with initiative selects the order for all players or just his/her? For example, In a 3-player game does the player sitting clockwise from the Initiative player select the order for his/her objects/spells after the initiative player has first choice?

[Zuberi]

To avoid confusion of two separate issues, I'm going to go over both.

First, the person with Initiative always gets the chance to act first, and other players will get their chance in clockwise order from them. So when Deploying, Quickcasting in a Quickcast Phase, and doing creature Action Phases always start with the person with Initiative. Nobody else is doing anything during these times, you're just taking turns, so there are no timing issues.

Second, when things happen simultaneously, such as during the Upkeep Phase or when multiple things trigger at the same time, then each player makes all choices regarding objects and effects they control. If you control multiple objects/effects, you choose for yourself which one happens first, second, etc. If multiple players have things happening simultaneously, and you need to know when they happen in relation to each other, then the player with Initiative gets to decide how they relate to each other.

Example A: In a three player game between Timmy, Johnny, and Spike, Timmy currently has Initiative. Something happens that triggers effects A and B, controlled by Johnny, as well as effects C and D controlled by Spike. Johnny gets to decide the order for effects A and B, and decides that effect B should go off first. Spike gets to decide the order for effects C and D, and decides that C should go off first. So, now we have effects B and C going off simultaneously, and Timmy gets to decide the order for them, deciding that B should go off first. After that we have effects A and C going off simultaneously, and Timmy again gets to decide the order and decides that C should happen. Then we have A and D occurring, and Timmy decides D should go off next. Then we have A occur.

As you can see, Timmy gets to make a lot of choices, but he is limited by the other player's control over their own objects. He could not have possibly made A happen before B, nor could he have made D happen before C. All he can do is decide when you are comparing multiple players to one another.

Voluntary Enchantment Reveals is a special scenario that I'll go over separately. It is sort of a simultaneous event, but due to it's voluntary nature and dealing with hidden information, the rule book makes it very clear that you should handle it in turns. So, starting with the player with Initiative, you may reveal as many enchantments as you want, and then the next player on your left gets to do the same. It continues going around and around the table indefinitely until all players have passed consecutively. Consecutively is important. It is perfectly acceptable for a player to pass on one go around, and then decide to reveal the next time the chance comes back around to them. It's only when all players have passed in a row that the chance to reveal ends. This description could be debatable since the rules were clearly written for 2 player games instead of multiplayer, but that's how I believe it should be interpreted.

This is different from triggered mandatory enchantment reveals, where you don't get a choice on the matter. You can't pass or say you don't want to reveal when dealing with a trigger. You only get to decide what order things happen in if you have multiple things trigger. A triggered mandatory enchantment reveal is entirely under the rules for handling simultaneous events as outlined in Example A.

Example B: After any step, phase, or activation, you should check to see if any player wants to voluntarily reveal an enchantment. If someone does, then you start with the player who has initiative and go around the table taking turns, revealing as many enchantments on your turn as you wish, until everyone passes in a row.

Example C: Something happens to trigger one of your enchantments. You immediately interrupt the action to declare that you are required to reveal something. If you have multiple things that triggered, you choose the order. If multiple players have things that trigger, they all announce this and the person who has Initiative gets to decide which player resolves first, as described in Example A. You do not have to tell the person with Initiative what a triggered enchantment is before resolving it, just that it has triggered.

Note: Mandatory Reveals trigger in response to things happening, meaning that they actually get revealed during a step or phase. You cannot voluntarily reveal other enchantments while handling these triggers, unless the triggered effects provide steps that you can reveal between, such as making an attack.

I hope this helps everything make sense. As you can see, it's actually a very robust system despite it's simple description. Take turns when acting. You always control your own stuff. Initiative decides any other timing questions.

[jacksmack]

rulebook 3.3 page 6:

The player with the initiative acts first during the Action
Stage, and goes first whenever you must determine the
order of events


page 7:

In the rare
case that a timing issue occurs,
the player with the initiative
decides the order.


Confusing to me.

[Zuberi]

There are only three things at play here:

1. When determining what order players go in, always start with Initiative and go clockwise.
2. You make all decisions regarding objects and effects you control. ALL decisions.
3. When there's a timing issue, Initiative gets to resolve the timing issue.

These rules are all covered by the codex section for Controller and the codex section for Initiative. We then get some examples of how to apply these rules with the Upkeep Phase rules on page 7, and the Trap rules on page 20. These could be considered to be specific rules for just these types of occasions rather than examples of the general rules, but I don't think so due to reasons explained later.

So, now to the conflict and confusion. First, when acting in turns there are no timing issues. You do your turn and then the next player does theirs. Timing issues only occur when things happen simultaneously. When things happen simultaneously, if they are all controlled by the same person, they get to decide the order to resolve them in because they get to make ALL decisions regarding objects they control according to the general rules in the codex. This is consistent with both the section on the Upkeep Phase and the section on Traps. So, if they are all controlled by the same player, you again do not have a timing issue because the rules cover how to handle it.

So, the only time you have a timing issue is when multiple effects controlled by multiple players happen simultaneously. Now, the example of the Upkeep Phase, if we take it as an example, says explicitly that Initiative gets to decide how to handle these issues. Active conscious choice. Which since these things are normally decided by the player who controls them (when it's just one player), having them resolved by an active decision from someone makes sense to me. However, the general rules in the codex are admittedly more vague. Saying simply that Initiative "resolves any timing issues" without saying explicitly how it resolves them. So, if you don't take the Upkeep Phase and Traps sections as examples of the general rules, then you do have a small gap to fill in.

If you fill it in by looking for similar situations and examples though, you will not find a single example of Initiative being forced into a resolution without any choice in the matter. Initiative going first only seems to occur when taking turns. The closest thing you'll find is voluntarily revealing enchantments, in which case it tells you to take turns. If you were to handle other simultaneous events like that, you're left with unanswered questions and it just doesn't work very well. Does initiative need to resolve all of their triggers before moving on to the next player's turn, or do you go back and forth? Could a player pass on their turn? Active decision making is required when you sit and think about it.

So, I hope we can all agree now that:
1. Timing Issues only occur when multiple effects, controlled by multiple players, happen simultaneously.
2. These issues are resolved by active decision making on the part of the Player with Initiative.
3. The player with Initiative can not dictate how to resolve effects controlled by another player. The controller always decides ALL things regarding objects/effects they control. Initiative only resolves the conflicts caused by timing issues, i.e. when things controlled by different players happen in relation to one another.

So now, back to my previous example:

Example A: In a three player game between Timmy, Johnny, and Spike, Timmy currently has Initiative. Something happens that triggers effects A and B, controlled by Johnny, as well as effects C and D controlled by Spike. Johnny gets to decide the order for effects A and B, and decides that effect B should go off first. Spike gets to decide the order for effects C and D, and decides that C should go off first. So, now we have effects B and C going off simultaneously, and Timmy gets to decide the order for them, deciding that B should go off first. After that we have effects A and C going off simultaneously, and Timmy again gets to decide the order and decides that C should happen. Then we have A and D occurring, and Timmy decides D should go off next. Then we have A occur.

As you can see, Timmy gets to make a lot of choices, but he is limited by the other player's control over their own objects. He could not have possibly made A happen before B, nor could he have made D happen before C. All he can do is decide when you are comparing multiple players to one another.