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Messages - ringkichard

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91
Spells / Re: steelclaw family
« on: December 30, 2015, 05:52:11 PM »
I have always admired bear hunters more than those that hunt deer; it seems more sporting to afford the hunter a chance to die with honor.

92
Try it and see :)

93
General Discussion / Re: OCTGN for shiny Mac
« on: December 20, 2015, 06:57:58 PM »
Any newly bought PC laptop should run OCTGN. If you're unafraid to re-partition your mac's hard drive, you can install Windows on its own partition as a dual boot system and then use Parallels to access your own Windows system from within OS X.

If all of this sounds complicated, it is kinda, but it's well documented so it's mostly just following directions for an hour or two.

94
Strategy and Tactics / Re: tournament viable necromancer?
« on: December 16, 2015, 01:58:19 PM »
All of the 10 channeling mages are potentially competitive. Necro and Priestess are probably 2 and 3 in popularity among that group.

95
Spellbook Design and Construction / Re: Force-Push-Master Deck
« on: December 15, 2015, 12:04:23 PM »
Gorgon Archer is my favorite way to play Forcemaster. She doesn't help the Necro matchup, and is only sorta ok against most Wizards, but she's so good against Druid and Warlock I think she's worth the points anyway. Still trying to figure out what her other creature should be in the games you don't want to summon the Archer, though. Cervere, probably? Yes, it's a lot of points, but the goal is short games.

96
Rules Discussion / Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« on: December 05, 2015, 08:49:29 PM »
I don't see what's changed. Whether you reveal within the step, after the roll, or you reveal after the step, either way you are revealing after the roll. Meaning both ways we would have the same problem and I'd be making the same arguments. Can it affect a roll that has already occurred? If it was yes, it is still yes. If it was no, it is still no. You say it was yes, but I can find no support for that answer. I would be perfectly fine with that answer if we had an official source on it, but we don't seem to and saying no to it seems easier and cleaner to me.

Ok, I'm back to my home, and a full sized keyboard:
Here's every instance of the word event in the v3-3 rules.

Quote from: 6
The player with the initiative acts first during the Action Stage, and goes first whenever you must determine the order of events.

This tells us that we may need to determine the order of events. In this context, it seems that events are just whatever things need to be put into order.

Quote from: 7, about the upkeep phase
You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase. In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order.

Example: You control a Highland Unicorn with the Regenerate 2 trait that has a Burn marker on it. Since the creature has a lot of damage on it, the Burn effect could destroy it. You can choose to resolve the Regenerate trait first or the Burn condition first.

This tells us that Regenerate and Burn are events, and by extension pretty much everything else that normally happens in the Upkeep Phase that you'd want to order.

Quote from: 18
Revealing Enchantments
Important: Hidden Enchantments have no effect as long as they are hidden! You may choose to reveal an enchantment immediately after any action or event, even if it is your opponent’s turn! This is a “free action” that does not require you to activate a creature or flip an action marker (See sidebar “When Can You Reveal?”).

This is the source of the event language that was the grease that allowed many cards to function in ways they perhaps cannot under a strict reading of the 4th printing rules.

Quote from: 18 again
Enchantments cannot affect an event that occurred before it was revealed. For example, you cannot reveal a Rhino Hide enchantment after the enchanted creature takes damage from an attack, to reduce the amount of damage it received.

Somewhat ironically, this is the "no going back in time" rule. It only applies to events. What's an event? Well, taking damage, in this example. The 4th printing rule is very similar.

Quote
When Can You Reveal?
You can reveal an enchantment immediately after any action or event in the game:
• At the end of any Phase of the game round. Example: An Essence Drain can be revealed at the end of the Reset Phase, so that it will take effect during the Upkeep Phase.
• Immediately after a creature is activated, before it chooses its actions for the turn.
Example: You could reveal Chains of Agony when your opponent activates his creature. If the creature moves that turn, it will take damage.
• Immediately after a creature completes its move action, but before it takes a quick action.
Example: After a creature moves into a zone, but before it can make an attack, you could reveal Sacred Ground.
• At the end of any of the eight steps of an attack or three steps of casting a spell.
Example: After the Avoid Attack Step of an attack, you could reveal the Rhino Hide enchantment on
your creature to reduce the amount of damage it will take from that attack.
• You can reveal an enchantment immediately after it is cast, right after the Resolve Spell Step.
When an enchantment is “resolved” it is placed face down as a hidden enchantment. Then, immediately after it has resolved, you may choose to reveal it at the end of that Step.
• You cannot interrupt an event to reveal an enchantment.
Example: You cannot reveal an enchantment on a creature in the middle of its Move Action, or in the middle of rolling dice during an attack. You would have to wait until that “event” (step or action) has finished.

In this portion, we learn that events are steps and actions, and by implication, also phases. We learn that rolling dice is an event.

Quote
If a mandatory or single use enchantment is revealed at any time other than the event for which it is supposed to trigger, it has no effect and is immediately destroyed and discarded. You cannot hold the revealed spell, to use its effect at a later time. For example, if a Block spell is revealed when there is no attack, it has no effect and is destroyed and discarded instead.

Here we learn that events are anything for which an enchantment triggers. Which makes sense, because it allows all enchantments to be revealed after they trigger.

--
Quote
I really don't see what the steps have to do with it at all. It's merely a question of what a reroll is and is it changing the past? If a reroll is changing the roll, then it has to happen when the roll happens because the game doesn't allow you to change the past. If it's not changing the past, and rather is a brand new occurrence, then it doesn't matter when it happens or when the enchantment is revealed as long as you can still make use of the dice somehow.

Let me put it as a question: would we have any reason to believe that the following card breaks the rules?
Re-roller. Mandatory Enchantment: Whenever this creature rolls an effect die for an attack and gets a result below 7, you must reveal Re-roller. Re-roll the attack and effect dice, then destroy Re-roller.

If we can do that, we have to be revealing the enchantment after the roll, because there's no way to reveal it during the roll. There's no reason to suspect that the roll procedure continues after the dice have stopped moving, is there? I propose that the only time the rules would allow a re-roll (if the above enchantment is legal, and it seems to me like it would be) is after the roll.

Under the version 3 rules, you could always reveal any enchantment after the roll, which would also be the soonest a mandatory enchantment could be revealed. This was because rolling dice is an event, and you could reveal after any event. If we believe the mandatory enchantment has an opportunity to function within the rules, all hidden re-roll enchantments could have done the same.

Under the version 4 rules, since you can't reveal after the roll unless the enchantment specifically tells you to, you have to wait till after the roll step to reveal Akiro's Favor. It's possible that once the step is passed, you're outside the window of opportunity for re-rolls, so you can't reveal in time to have any effect.

That's why steps come into it. Previously, you didn't have to wait till the end of a step to reveal, but now you do, and that may cause you to have to wait longer than is permissible.

--

I like your supreme court of Mage Wars analogy. We don't know the outcome, just the existing law such as it is. The decision makes new law. 

97
General Discussion / Re: Turn the page...
« on: December 04, 2015, 06:32:43 PM »
I'll look into whatever you're doing next, just on the strength of their Jugement in poaching you :) I'm sure we'll see ya' round!

98
General Discussion / Re: Mind Spawnpoint
« on: December 04, 2015, 10:07:21 AM »
I can imagine a novice spawnpoint with no channeling and some sort of every-other-round timer for pretty cheep. But I'd want a reason to do it. Making all mages more similar cuts off other options.

99
Spells / Re: Clear mind curiosity
« on: November 30, 2015, 05:02:41 PM »
His face also looks like the face of the academy wizard. The resemblance is uncanny.

Academy Wizard is totally Bryan Pope.

100
Rules Discussion / Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« on: November 30, 2015, 01:01:48 PM »
You mean Rhino Hide?
Ayep. That'll teach me to write on my 10min break.

101
Rules Discussion / Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« on: November 30, 2015, 08:56:48 AM »
if you re-do, you have to un-do (or you will have 2 dice rolls!).

Maybe. It's possible that re-rolls count as additional Quicksand escape attempts, for example. It's also possible that it's similar to revealing Bear Strength Rhino Hide after the dice are rolled but before they're applied. Only instead of changing the applied armor value you change the applied dice.

Do you have to re-roll before the roll step is over, or before the roll is applied?

I would tend to favor "before applied" because not all rolls happen in a step, but that fact may cause other problems, too, so may have to change. I donno.

102
Rules Discussion / Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« on: November 30, 2015, 05:14:18 AM »
here i would prefer if the official answer would treat the global problem (how far in the past an enchantment can have effect when it's revealed) and not only the A's favor problem. i prefere a unique global rull than 30 exceptions.

There is already an official answer to this question in the rulebook: time is never rewound. Temple doesn't "effect the past" either. A re-roll is never an undo, it's always a re-do.

103
Spells / Re: Auto defense enchantment (don't know the name)
« on: November 30, 2015, 05:06:17 AM »
It's our job to get confused and make mistakes :)

104
Rules Discussion / Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« on: November 29, 2015, 11:16:43 PM »
Why does it have to be done within a step?

Maybe it doesn't. I don't know, because we don't have many rules for re-rolling. It's totally possible that you can re-roll any time before the roll is applied.

The old rules called rolling an event, so it was more clear that you *couldn't* re-roll during a roll, so you had to re-roll afterwards. Now? Donno.

105
Rules Discussion / Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« on: November 29, 2015, 06:56:16 PM »
Yes, you need to reveal after a phase, step, or action. Yes, some enchantments must be revealed before they can be used rather than as a surprise. This is how I had thought it had always been, and I think a lot of this thread is just about people being upset about these facts.

Well, to some degree, yes. This *is* a change, and it was written in accidentally. Version three rules specifically say that a roll is an event, and that you can reveal after any event. Now, as I pointed out, the consiquenses of this rule weren't pursued aggressively at the time, but by removing opportunities to reveal enchantments some cards just don't work the same as they used to, and this is potentially one. We didn't need a definition of re-roll that specified if it could re-roll an attack after the Roll Dice Phase, because you could just reveal Akiro's Favor after the roll while still in the Phase.

I really am thinking of going through every card in the game and making a list of every card this change affected. Or maybe I'll just take a break for a bit and calm down. Something about this really seems to have my goat.

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