Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ravepig on March 02, 2017, 09:32:33 AM
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I know there has been previous discussion around Gate to Hell, but thought I would revisit this topic as I'm just now really getting into the Warlock build. This particular card intrigues me, but it's so expensive to get into play- both sbp and mana costs. Has anyone had good luck with this card? Combined with the Warlocks new helm (can't think of the name offhand) that gives friendly demons +1 melee could be a pretty effective combo with Gate to Hell if played and activated at the right time. Thoughts?
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I know there has been previous discussion around Gate to Hell, but thought I would revisit this topic as I'm just now really getting into the Warlock build. This particular card intrigues me, but it's so expensive to get into play- both sbp and mana costs. Has anyone had good luck with this card? Combined with the Warlocks new helm (can't think of the name offhand) that gives friendly demons +1 melee could be a pretty effective combo with Gate to Hell if played and activated at the right time. Thoughts?
I've got it in my multiplayer Domination Warlock book... (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=16858.0) and even in that environment where you can be guaranteed there will be lots of enemy level 1-2 creatures susceptible to the "Open the Gate" attack, and where I have lots of low-level demons popping out of a Pentagram that can benefit from both the Melee +1 and "Garrison Post" that the Gate provides (and are either Flame Immune or have Flame -2), I still have never put it in play.
I definitely wouldn't play it in Arena. Far too conditional; rarely worth the sbp or mana, whether you open the gate or not.
My comments from the multiplayer Domination discussion thread (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=16804.0):
Warlock.
Arraxian Crown: (0-2-0)
Adramelech: (0-4-0)
Also sucks, but it's my personal goal to win a 3-way Domination match with a Warlock sporting Pentagram (e.g. worst spawn point) and Gate to Hell (e.g. worst Garrison Post), fueled by Ring of Fire and Firestorm, with lots of teleporting imps who give the (very popular) nature mages a tough time.
Those are (win-loss-draw) records...
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I know there has been previous discussion around Gate to Hell, but thought I would revisit this topic as I'm just now really getting into the Warlock build. This particular card intrigues me, but it's so expensive to get into play- both sbp and mana costs. Has anyone had good luck with this card? Combined with the Warlocks new helm (can't think of the name offhand) that gives friendly demons +1 melee could be a pretty effective combo with Gate to Hell if played and activated at the right time. Thoughts?
I've got it in my multiplayer Domination Warlock book... and even in that environment where you can be guaranteed there will be lots of enemy level 1-2 creatures susceptible to the "Open the Gate" attack, and where I have lots of low-level demons popping out of a Pentagram that can benefit from both the Melee +1 and "Garrison Post" that the Gate provides, I still have never put it in play.
I definitely wouldn't play it in Arena. Far too conditional; rarely worth the sbp or mana, whether you open the gate or not.
I can definitely see this card being more useful in domination. That's something to consider. I agree with your assessment regarding Arena. It's really unfortunate because the concept of the card is oozing with theme. I almost want it in play just for theme alone- but I agree, probably not worth the cost in the end. 6 points that can be used on something more effective.
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The sad truth is that it is a very bad card. I've tried a lot to make it work but it serves 3 unlinked purposes and it makes you pay a lot (both sbp and mana) for each.
- If you want melee +1, the bloodfire helmet (almost) gives you that for 1 spellbookpoint and 5 mana.
- If you want to spawn your demons near the enemy, you have to open the gate and make that attack. At that point you have spend 24 mana on a conjuration. That's the same amount as Adramelech! If you cast and open the gate early game, you probably have a very bad opening and the fire attack won't do a lot of damage. since there isn't much yet. At that point you also don't have a big army yet. However, if you want to cast it later on, you probably already have multiple demons and you won't be casting a lot of new ones.
All in all, I don't think it is ever worth it to open the gate and using the spell only for melee +1 is pretty expensive for 12 mana and 6 spellbookpoints.
TLDR: Cool art, cool theme, worthless card.
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The sad truth is that it is a very bad card. I've tried a lot to make it work but it serves 3 unlinked purposes and it makes you pay a lot (both sbp and mana) for each.
- If you want melee +1, the bloodfire helmet (almost) gives you that for 1 spellbookpoint and 5 mana.
- If you want to spawn your demons near the enemy, you have to open the gate and make that attack. At that point you have spend 24 mana on a conjuration. That's the same amount as Adramelech! If you cast and open the gate early game, you probably have a very bad opening and the fire attack won't do a lot of damage. since there isn't much yet. At that point you also don't have a big army yet. However, if you want to cast it later on, you probably already have multiple demons and you won't be casting a lot of new ones.
All in all, I don't think it is ever worth it to open the gate and using the spell only for melee +1 is pretty expensive for 12 mana and 6 spellbookpoints.
TLDR: Cool art, cool theme, worthless card.
Any chance of including Gate to Hell in future errata to make it more playable?
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Any chance of including Gate to Hell in future errata to make it more playable?
You mean, in addition to the recent errata (included in 4th printing) that was intended to make it more playable?
Gate to Hell
Current Text: "All demon creatures gain Melee +1. Gate to Hell enters play with a 'Closed' token. Once per game, as a full action, you may pay 12 mana to flip the token to the 'Opened' side, and make the above attack against each non-flying creature in the arena. Once opened, whenever you, or a spawnpoint or familiar you control, Summon a demon creature, you may place it in the Gate's zone."
Gate to Hell no longer has the Hydro +3 trait.
The action to “Open the Gate” must be performed by the controlling Mage, and may be performed from anywhere in the Arena. When the gate is opened, the controller decides the order for each attack to be resolved. Resolve the attacks one at a time, fully resolving the first one before going onto the next. These attacks do not require LOS as the gate is filling the entire board with this arena wide attack.
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Most bad cards don't get buffed, only good cards get nerfed.
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Any chance of including Gate to Hell in future errata to make it more playable?
You mean, in addition to the recent errata (included in 4th printing) that was intended to make it more playable?
Gate to Hell
Current Text: "All demon creatures gain Melee +1. Gate to Hell enters play with a 'Closed' token. Once per game, as a full action, you may pay 12 mana to flip the token to the 'Opened' side, and make the above attack against each non-flying creature in the arena. Once opened, whenever you, or a spawnpoint or familiar you control, Summon a demon creature, you may place it in the Gate's zone."
Gate to Hell no longer has the Hydro +3 trait.
The action to “Open the Gate” must be performed by the controlling Mage, and may be performed from anywhere in the Arena. When the gate is opened, the controller decides the order for each attack to be resolved. Resolve the attacks one at a time, fully resolving the first one before going onto the next. These attacks do not require LOS as the gate is filling the entire board with this arena wide attack.
Yeah, I know it's already been thru the process once. But if it's still not right, why not reconsider a second look until it is right? Selfishly, I want this card to be playable ha ha.
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Most bad cards don't get buffed, only good cards get nerfed.
Agreed- we can still ask though. The worst they can say is no. If the community all agrees it's a terrible card, why not fix it (or re-fix it).
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Bad cards can be altered with minor tweaks, but there is no way you can "fix" the gate without completely redesigning the card. At that point AW can probably better create a new card.
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Most bad cards don't get buffed, only good cards get nerfed.
Agreed- we can still ask though. The worst they can say is no. If the community all agrees it's a terrible card, why not fix it (or re-fix it).
Other priorities. I think they'd rather bring new product to market than put effort into rebalancing and playtesting product included in the original core set.
Bad cards can be altered with minor tweaks, but there is no way you can "fix" the gate without completely redesigning the card. At that point AW can probably better create a new card.
If they brought the casting cost down to 7 or 8 AND made it a quick-cast action (in line with the Totems), it might be worth playing. Then, the cost:benefit breaks down like this:
- 7 or 8 mana QC, targeting a zone at range 0-1: All demons (friendly and otherwise) get Melee +1.
- 12 mana and Full action, no range or LoS restriction: 4-dice Flame attack against all non-flying creatures in the Arena (friendly and unfriendly, including your mage), PLUS you turn the Gate into a "Garrison Post" for any future Demons you or your Pentagram summon.
This way, you at least get a "totem" for Demons at a reasonable cost even if you never "Open the Gate." ... Although I'm not sure it's worth 6 sbps... maybe 4?
*edit* By the way, here are the new (left) and old (right) versions of the card side-by-side (token in front of the wrong one; oops!)
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic3180141_lg.jpg)
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Most bad cards don't get buffed, only good cards get nerfed.
Agreed- we can still ask though. The worst they can say is no. If the community all agrees it's a terrible card, why not fix it (or re-fix it).
Other priorities. I think they'd rather bring new product to market than put effort into rebalancing and playtesting product included in the original core set.
Bad cards can be altered with minor tweaks, but there is no way you can "fix" the gate without completely redesigning the card. At that point AW can probably better create a new card.
If they brought the casting cost down to 7 or 8 AND made it a quick-cast action (in line with the Totems), it might be worth playing. Then, the cost:benefit breaks down like this:
- 7 or 8 mana QC, targeting a zone at range 0-1: All demons (friendly and otherwise) get Melee +1.
- 12 mana and Full action, no range or LoS restriction: 4-dice Flame attack against all non-flying creatures in the Arena (friendly and unfriendly, including your mage), PLUS you turn the Gate into a "Garrison Post" for any future Demons you or your Pentagram summon.
This way, you at least get a "totem" for Demons at a reasonable cost even if you never "Open the Gate." ... Although I'm not sure it's worth 6 sbps... maybe 4?
I was thinking something very similar: reduce casting cost from 12 to 8 and reduce book cost from 6 to 4. Even if it's still a full action to cast, this small change makes the card feel worthwhile. It would take a couple sentences in the supplement document and a communication to make this happen. Or am I over-simplifying the process?
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Tbh if w are going down this route, there are a lot of overcosted cards and undercosted abilities. We would open a very big cans of worms. IMO it should stay as is and not be played.
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Tbh if w are going down this route, there are a lot of overcosted cards and undercosted abilities. We would open a very big cans of worms. IMO it should stay as is and not be played.
Why not just only do this kind of errata for cards that NEVER see play? If a card is so bad that it is wasted space in a product and literally no one has any good reason to use it ever, then you could errata it. Any cards that are overcosted but not enough to be useless would not be errata'd. Does that sound like a good solution?
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No because that detracts from time spent on testing new cards.
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No because that detracts from time spent on testing new cards.
Yep, that's the main issue. Errata is used sparingly in situations where the game might otherwise become broken (e.g. meta becomes stale because everybody knows Wizard is best; everybody packs 4-6x Hand of Bim-Shala because if you don't you're doing it wrong; etc). But errata to boost "bad" cards is exceedingly rare unless there's a really easy fix (like Malacoda, or Goblin Builder, or Garrison Post).
That said... here's a new card idea:
Gate to Infernia
Same text as Gate to Hell, but costs 8 mana, is level 4, and is a quick-cast. ::)
*edit* To prevent it from being opened on the turn it's cast, perhaps give it something analogous to Dissipate markers, where when the last Dissipate gets removed, the Gate opens and attack is made and it becomes a Demon Garrison Post. Kind of a "count-down to doomsday." Like Altar of Domination/Talos, but for an Arena-wide attack and "all Infernia breaks loose" kind of feel.
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No because that detracts from time spent on testing new cards.
So, create a "new" card called "Hell Portal." :o
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As a playtester, I can confirm. The alternate, alternate warlock is our number one priority and we will surely have this spell in the set. ::) The downside is however that frost will be delayed to 2019. But, who cares? Gate to hell is all we need! 8)
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As a playtester, I can confirm. The alternate, alternate warlock is our number one priority and we will surely have this spell in the set. ::) The downside is however that frost will be delayed to 2019. But, who cares? Gate to hell is all we need! 8)
I wasn't actually serious about creating a new Gate to Hell card, but can appreciate the snark. We definitely don't want to wait until 2019 for a Frost Mage. :)
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I'm glad you understood it was a joke. :P Sometimes things like that aren't clear over internet.
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I'm glad you understood it was a joke. :P Sometimes things like that aren't clear over internet.
Of course. And even if you weren't joking, life's way too short to get butt-hurt over a subjective post. Ha ha.
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Clearly this card is a passageway to hell and whoever calls it is DOOMED
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Clearly this card is a passageway to hell and whoever calls it is DOOMED
Still gotta try it once just for theme. I might doom myself, but it may be worth just to see how my opponent might react.
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ב"ה
Even in a pentagram book that have this spell I use it rarely. It worth the cost once you have at least 5-6 demons in the arena (with more coming). You wouldn't open the gate opponent is swarming too (happened to me maybe once).
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The only time I played it was with Cerberus guarding in the zone... it worked pretty well for me that game, but the combination is hugely expensive. If I remember correctly I had hellfire traps all around it also. This was in my ultra-ddefensive mindset days... which isn't really the way to go for tournaments (or maybe at all).
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Yes. Always yes
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I feel that most bad cards shouldn't be directly errata'd, because new cards can indirectly buff them to make them worthwhile again, or players might uncover niche strategies that utilize those cards in some way. However, there are a handful of cards I do consider bad enough to be broken outright. Nothing short of an errata can fix them, and their current iteration is basically unplayable: they might as well not exist because absolutely no one ever plays them. Gate to Hell has always been one of those cards. I consider it a shame, since I don't think it would actually take that much work to give the card a strategic function while keeping it unique.
I don't think the card should have its cost reduced, nor be made a quick action to cast. Instead, it should become the first late-game spawnpoint. Add an innate Channeling of 3 to the card. Then replace its current card text with this:
"All demon creatures gain Melee +1. Gate to Hell enters play with a "Closed" token. Once per game, as a full action, you may pay 12 mana to flip the token to the "Opened" side, and make the above attack against each non-flying creature in the arena. Once opened, Gate to Hell gains the Spawnpoint trait and may summon an unlimited number of demon creatures during the Deployment Phase."
Now all of the separate parts of the card (the demon melee buff, the arena-wide attack, and the summoning capability) suddenly synergize with each other. You can lay down the card early, protect it during the mid-game, and then suddenly weaken all of your opponent's creatures right before summoning a swarm of your own. This also doesn't make the card overpowered. It hurts the early-game economy of its mage, is vulnerable to being destroyed before it becomes useful, and isn't particularly useful outside of Warlock swarm builds.
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Why not just only do this kind of errata for cards that NEVER see play? If a card is so bad that it is wasted space in a product and literally no one has any good reason to use it ever, then you could errata it. Any cards that are overcosted but not enough to be useless would not be errata'd. Does that sound like a good solution?
And then people complain they want errated cards reprinted...
at this point you have had to playtest a new card, and print a new card - so just consign it to the bin, and create a new card.
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Cards that benefit from dark school portal conjurations could be introduced so there was another reason to play Pentagram and Gate to Hell.
Example: Non-legendary Hellbound demon that has its casting cost reduced by x for every friendly dark portal in the game.
If the x was 2 then casting four of them would "reduce" the Gate's casting cost by 8.
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Cards that benefit from dark school portal conjurations could be introduced so there was another reason to play Pentagram and Gate to Hell.
Example: Non-legendary Hellbound demon that has its casting cost reduced by x for every friendly dark portal in the game.
If the x was 2 then casting four of them would "reduce" the Gate's casting cost by 8.
I would never play that creature with Gate to Hell. I would just hard cast it at face value as it would need to reduce its cost by 13 before I would consider it a better option. Otherwise bin the GtH and save yourself the difference in mana cost to cast on other more optimal spells.