Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Santar on March 28, 2017, 09:13:14 AM
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Hi Mages.
I have interesting question: can I defense from Hydrothermal Vent's attack and how can I do it?
(http://skrinshoter.ru/s/280317/VP8qOJ6l.png)
If we look at Vent's attack bar we will not find unavoidable trait. So, we can use Block or Cobra Reflexes to avoid this attack.
(http://skrinshoter.ru/s/280317/1HCjOMVY.png) (http://skrinshoter.ru/s/280317/mBFFwqTZ.png)
But can we use defense from Force Orb or Deflection Bracers?
(http://skrinshoter.ru/s/280317/wdYDMIPR.png) (http://skrinshoter.ru/s/280317/a8U9vYAF.png)
Let's take a look in the rules:
(http://skrinshoter.ru/s/280317/tBOCh7aB.png)(http://skrinshoter.ru/s/280317/5DMNjULd.png)
But this attack is not melee or range! So, I think we can not use such defenses. Am I right?
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Well. I'd say all defenses work against that attack. You quoted the rules yourself:
"does not work against ranged attacks"
"does not work against meele attacks"
And you said the attack was neither. Therefore both should be applicable.
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(http://skrinshoter.ru/s/280317/rqTvErD6.png)
Here we can see, that if attack doesn't work against range, it works against only melee. But Vent's attack is not melee attack. So...
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Just pretend that the stuff in brackets does not exist. Because obviously when they wrote the rules they did not anticipate that there might be attacks later that are neither ranged nor melee.
And then you don't have a problem because the rules are (apart from that small insertion in the brackets) pretty clear, aren't they?
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I dunno guys, i think that it might fall into the same category as trample attacks. Its neither a melee nor a ranged attack. Its attack bar says it has neither trait.
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This parts from rules for latest 4th core box. So, it's the latest information.
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for me, the symbol says "no melee" or "no range", that means anithing else (including trample or hydro vent)
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Something that AW has done a lot of in the past which irks me a lot is that they love to mix flavor text within the rules. This can "bring things to life" and help things "make sense" but they can also be misinterpreted as rules in their own right. Separating out useless text can be a kind of art form, and is in no way an exact science.
With that in mind, I agree that you should ignore the part in parenthesis. In several other places they define those symbols as meaning they don't work against melee or they don't work against range, and that's the definition I would use. Really, if you try and interpret them as meaning they only work against range/melee then their design and the way the rules are written don't really make any sense.
Thus, I'd say that all of your example defenses would work against hydrothermal vents, and that is the one weakness it has compared to other traps.
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Just pretend that the stuff in brackets does not exist. Because obviously when they wrote the rules they did not anticipate that there might be attacks later that are neither ranged nor melee.
Attacks that are neither have been around since the 1st printing of the core game - Explode for example.
Something that AW has done a lot of in the past which irks me a lot is that they love to mix flavor text within the rules. This can "bring things to life" and help things "make sense" but they can also be misinterpreted as rules in their own right. Separating out useless text can be a kind of art form, and is in no way an exact science.
With that in mind, I agree that you should ignore the part in parenthesis. In several other places they define those symbols as meaning they don't work against melee or they don't work against range, and that's the definition I would use. Really, if you try and interpret them as meaning they only work against range/melee then their design and the way the rules are written don't really make any sense.
Agreed. Those parentheses should be removed next rulebook, they are clearly wrong.
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Agreed. Those parentheses should be removed next rulebook, they are clearly wrong.
+1
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NB: Khali-Gar, from Acdemy, has a "non range" defense... but it's writtent on the card that it only works against melee... according to other rulings about academy's cards, it doesn't work against trample and vent!
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In the Attack Procedure chart in the official supplement on page 3, the backgroundcolor of the cell "avoid attack - other attacks" (which includes the attack of hydrothermal vent) is yellow. According to the statement above this means that the defense step is part of the procedure for the attack type "other attacks".
Therefore the attack of Hydrothermal Vent and trample attacks can be avoided with every defense!
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ב"ה
In the Attack Procedure chart in the official supplement on page 3, the backgroundcolor of the cell "avoid attack - other attacks" (which includes the attack of hydrothermal vent) is yellow. According to the statement above this means that the defense step is part of the procedure for the attack type "other attacks".
Therefore the attack of Hydrothermal Vent and trample attacks can be avoided with every defense!
Now about trample, I think t does count as melee attack, but simply isn't affected by melee +x trait. So if a defende can't defend from melee attacks then it can't defend from trample.
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For those who do not have the Lost Grimiore rulebook:
a trample attack is neither a melee nor a ranged attack, and thus is not affected by things which affect melee or ranged attacks
So, it very explicitly is not a melee attack. Not in regards to Defenses or any other purposes.
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Now about trample, I think t does count as melee attack, but simply isn't affected by melee +x trait. So if a defende can't defend from melee attacks then it can't defend from trample.
Trample is not a melee attack ( nor a ranged attack ) and does not benefit from Melee + X ( or Ranged + X ) effects, meaning any defense should work against it just like against Hydrothermal vent.
Ninja'd by Zuberi :)
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There are only 4 Trap cards.
3 of them are "attack type cards"
2 of the attacks are unavoidable, only hydrothermal vent is not.
I don't remember from the playtesting discussions, but was this just missed, or was "unavoidable" intentionally left out?
Could this be something to consider for Errata if it was accidently left off. It seems like it should be unavoidable, based on past card creation.
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I know Hydro thermal Vent intentionally left out unavoidable. The fact that any defense can be used against it was also intentional. While this is considered one of the best trap cards because of it's lack of restrictions/high dice, it has the downside of not being unavoidable.
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I know Hydro thermal Vent intentionally left out unavoidable. The fact that any defense can be used against it was also intentional. While this is considered one of the best trap cards because of it's lack of restrictions/high dice, it has the downside of not being unavoidable.
... which is somewhat ironic, since all 4 existing Hydro attack spells have the Unavoidable trait.