Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Alternative Play => Topic started by: DeckBuilder on January 31, 2014, 01:20:04 AM
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Has anyone tried this obvious variant rule?
"At the end of the Planning Phase, return all discarded cards that are not creatures or Epic to spell books"
Thinking it through, it should create a lot more emphasis on creatures (good) and far more variety in games
Because all books will be more Toolbox hence more diverse and there would more emphasis on play skill
No need to commit to Poison or Psychic and play match-up lottery, you have diverse strategies in one book
So seeing opponent play Rock, you play Paper, so he changes to Scissors, you to Lizard, him to Spock etc
It lessens the Spell Point Resource (attrition strategy is Holy with Resurrection as Raise Dead obliterates)
It lessens "taxes" like Teleport, Dispel, Dissolve (both Incant and target are cantrips, just tempo removal)
It means spells with Immunity (Psychic, Poison etc) can be included in books so not rely too much on them
As for Wands, all they'll do is give you an additional option to cast, just like Mordok's Tome but far weaker
That Wizard's Tower won't be so sick, I will be able to rely on just 1 equipment in each slot, it all feels ok
And the really important spells that destroy strategies (Orb, Obelisk, Pestilence etc) will not have Cantrip
It seems such an obvious variant that I was wondering if anyone has tried it?
(I'm a bit time/opponent starved to test it but my feeling is it could be good)
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That's an interesting idea. Maybe I'll give it a shot tomorrow if I get a chance.
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Thanks, Silverclaw. What little play I get has got to be dedicated to playtesting new cards to pull my weight.
Else all I am is a design meddler and pain to them.
I have slightly changed the variant to "Delayed Cantrip" - see above.
This is because there must be a tempo loss when playing or losing a card.
Also a reason for having more than 1 copy of each Incant or Attack (less so Equip, Enchants still multiple).
It also prevents cheesiness: if you want to play 4x Hurl Boulder in 2 rounds, you have to pay SPs for them.
These are some of the by-products of this variant that I hope will occur.
(a) Active Healing will be more important else the distance nuke strategy could easily win
(b) Board Zonal Control (be it spread swarm or ranged) will be more important else Mage Teleport escapes
(c) Situational Silver Bullets (Falcon Precision, Divine Might) added so defensive traits force you to respond
(d) Match-Up Lottery Bullet Vests (Immunity, Burnproof) will not be as crippling playing that nemesis mage
(e) There's no longer that "he won because I ran out of Dispels" punishing decision to just have 4 not 6 etc
(f) It would make single-use familiars like Huginn more appealing (familiar's spell is still be delayed return)
By having a "sin bin" delayed cantrip, you add value to surprise "I play 2 copies" yet get round card attrition
It also adds some value to playing Wands and other spellbind cards which are bit nerfed without the delay
You can see I'm just making it up as I'm going and this was just a random blurted-out idea (as is my wont)
But my mind is already racing on the repercussions and I'm actually quite convinced it would be all good
Maybe a false dawn but I can't see the flaw in the idea yet...
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One question I have DeckBuilder that maybe I'm missing is how do you plan to deal with Enchantments? I mean obviously they don't go back into the spellbook until they are dispelled or countered some how but then there's still the need to keep multiple copies of some curses for example if I feel like Ghoul Rotting a bunch of creatures with my Warlock.
Still this seems very interesting indeed. I'll let you know if I get a chance to mess around with it.
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Enchantments would be multiple copies to suit
If I anticipate X targets simultaneously to Bear Strength or Ghoul Rot, I put X copies
Obviously opponent may Dispel 1, freeing a copy so maybe I put X-1 copies in my book
The Silver Bullet enchants create a nice dilemma
I summon a Knight of Westlock
Next turn I plan for a Dispel but you don't cast Falcon Precision
All persistent enchants can be timed to gain 1 use for their cost before it is dispelled
Persistent enchants provoke a dispel while Commands add extra pain or same 1 use effect cheaper
As for triggered enchants, if you Seeking Dispel it, thank you very much it was a Decoy!
I'm racking my brain to find a flaw because it seems such a simple variant...
It totally requires a completely different mind set when building books and playing the game though...
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Yeah I'm digging the idea a lot myself. Now to build a spell book around it and convince a friend to do the same.
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What if you just allowed the player to regain 1 card, rather than all of them? That would preserve the incentive to have multiples of each card, and would still allow for attrition-type strategies. Also, you should probably not allow players to regain conjurations if creatures cannot be regained; otherwise there isn't much incentive to take the time to destroy them, except for territory reasons.
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This idea makes me nervous. It would drastically change the nature and balance of the game. Everyone would basically just include one of every spell and all the books would start to look alike. I enjoy having to make tough decisions on what to include in my books and come up with specific strategies.
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I agree with Zuberi. This delayed cantrip idea is kind of like having infinite spellbook points that get gradually added to your spellbook over the course of the game. And with infinite spellbook points we won't be making challenging strategic decisions in deckbuilding. It sounds like a good idea in theory, but I don't think it would actually work in practice.
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What if you just allowed the player to regain 1 card, rather than all of them? That would preserve the incentive to have multiples of each card, and would still allow for attrition-type strategies.
Yes, ACG. Yet again you have come up with an improvement.
"At the end of each Planning Phase, each player returns 1 card from their discards to their spell book."
I know it is a variant of your Archivist idea, (I still remember our chats).
Also, you should probably not allow players to regain conjurations if creatures cannot be regained; otherwise there isn't much incentive to take the time to destroy them, except for territory reasons.
You forget about Zone Exclusive = "Territory reasons"
All conjurations that are not Zone Exclusive have an effect beneficial to that build
I would remove a Crystal/Flower/Wardstone/whatever to replace it with my own...
Even if I couldn't, stripping you of mana is not bad if I have no other good play with that creature.
This idea makes me nervous. It would drastically change the nature and balance of the game. Everyone would basically just include one of every spell and all the books would start to look alike. I enjoy having to make tough decisions on what to include in my books and come up with specific strategies.
Oh Zuberi... I have trouble culling down to 120pts when I plan a book.
You will want 2 of some spells. And you will spend more on creatures.
Ok, I guess the only solution is for me to test this out. And see if my instinct is correct.
Now I find shortlisting to 120pts with a sufficient creature base to be quite challenging.
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It was fun trying it out. I can see how it wouldn't fly in the long run though but was still cool.
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What was it like? Really long game I'm guessing?
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We tried Necromancer VS Warlock and it didn't go that long. Basically it set up like normal with Mana Crystals, Battle Forges etc. But I decided that since I didn't need to conserve spells I'd just start blasting away at the Necromancer before he got his full spiel up and he just sort of responded in kind. Game took about 45 minutes. Lets just say if a Necromancer doesn't have to worry about keeping those Zombie Frenzies in reserve.....yeah my face got eaten pretty quick.
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Thanks for trying it out, Silverclaw, you are a good sport
Yeah, maybe ACG's toned down version idea would be better
The strategy taken by both of you seems odd
I think I'd have gone for Huge Mana Advantage
Which would have led to a long game I suspect
However, do not feel downcast by your defeat
Warlock vs. Necromancer should almost always result in a win to the Necromancer
Unless you Go For The Throat right from the start (no Forge/Crystals, just Hyper Aggro)
Even then, I fancy Necromancer's chances as he's simply a more powerful mage design
Why so? Apart from the stats (10 Channeling, abilities that synergise)..
All the Warlock benefits below are useless against a Necromancer
Death Link - 100% useless (your best curse)
Ghoul Rot - 100% useless (but not vice versa)
Hem of Fear - 100% useless (mage makes no attacks)
Bloodthirsty (reaper) - only vs. mage
Blood Reaper heal benefit - only vs. mage
Vampirism - only vs. mage
To worsen Warlock's plight, Deathlock is played in Necromancers and Nonliving Wizard builds
Warlock resilience (just like Druid) is based on passive healing; Nonliving builds just shut it down
These imbalances in the design of mages (like Jokhtari and Warlock) is why I'm a firm believer that
Earth Wizard + 4 Iron Golems + 4 Devouring Jelly + 4 Mage Wands + 4 Teleports
is the current strongest build out there and, played fast, can win in a tournament's 90 minutes
Because, just like Skeletons trump Bloodthirsty Zombies, Wizard's Nonliving trumps them both
The weakness, of course, is Holy but that school is underdeveloped so not much of a weakness
So, Silverclaw, don't feel too bad about having your "face eaten" by Frenzied Zombies
(My Zombies = 4 Brutes, 1 Shaggoth, 1 Plague + 3 Frenzy, you don't need more to win)
It was a really bad match-up for a Warlock so your chances were pretty slim anyway...
Thanks for trying it out
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Glad to try it out but I have to respectfully disagree about the Warlock Necromancer build. I generally win against Necromancers with my Warlock. Mage Bane, Chains of Agony, Agony, and Enfeeble work just fine on the mage itself. Cheetah Speed + Mongoose Agility means I'll avoid their attackers a lot of the time. Put enough Fireballs/Flame Blasts in your book with an Elemental Wand(and hey a Force Hammer) and you get a speedy little range fighter who can destroy Constructs easily and get around the board where you need to be. The "Run n Gun Warlock" works fairly well in my experience so far though I'm drooling over Forged in Fire obviously. Take down the Necromancers Cloak of Shadows and he's wide open. Not enough Necromancers put enough offense from the Mages stand point in my view so far. They rely on their minions which are damaged by Fire Walls, Fire Traps, and avoided otherwise.
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These imbalances in the design of mages (like Jokhtari and Warlock) is why I'm a firm believer that
Earth Wizard + 4 Iron Golems + 4 Devouring Jelly + 4 Mage Wands + 4 Teleports
is the current strongest build out there
And if only teleport were nerfed so that it could not target enemy mages, then this build would not be near as dominating as it is. It might even nip this build's OPness in the bud...
And the issue here isn't power balance, or what the outcome of the game is. It's the fact that both players found it more advantageous to not take much advantage of the many strategies they had available which they designed their spellbook with.
I think the way they tried to win and the way you would have done it Deckbuilder might be two of if not THE two dominating strategies in this format.
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I think the way they tried to win and the way you would have done it Deckbuilder might be two of if not THE two dominating strategies in this format.
I completely agree, Imaginator.
This version of "Mage Wars on Steroids" demonstrates the 2 polarised strategies.
Glad to try it out but I have to respectfully disagree about the Warlock Necromancer build. I generally win against Necromancers with my Warlock. Mage Bane, Chains of Agony, Agony, and Enfeeble work just fine on the mage itself. Cheetah Speed + Mongoose Agility means I'll avoid their attackers a lot of the time. Put enough Fireballs/Flame Blasts in your book with an Elemental Wand(and hey a Force Hammer) and you get a speedy little range fighter who can destroy Constructs easily and get around the board where you need to be. The "Run n Gun Warlock" works fairly well in my experience so far though I'm drooling over Forged in Fire obviously. Take down the Necromancers Cloak of Shadows and he's wide open. Not enough Necromancers put enough offense from the Mages stand point in my view so far. They rely on their minions which are damaged by Fire Walls, Fire Traps, and avoided otherwise.
Play Fire Wizard, my friend, play Fire Wizard if you want to play a ranged fire guerilla
No need for Buffs or Curses that can be Purged in 1 QC, just Teleport Wand if needed
Watch as any swarm freezes to Suppression Orb/Cloak then self-destructs to Obelisk
Turn the screw with Siphon, Wardstones on your Transfused stack of negative enchants
Laugh as your 6 Armour + Belt bounces most attacks, critical spikes absorbed by Shield
Your Tower changing spell to burn plants, slam Intercept, corrode armour, push away foes
Front line Devouring Jellies reconstructing as they clean the arena of corporeal creatures
Fire Wizard is all you need to unleash the inner pyromaniac within you...
Actually don't try Wizard, my friend, try all the others first, you'll get more out of the game
"Once you've had Wiz, you no never go back": a taste of honey is worse than none at all
Playing Warlock Guerrila over Fire Wizard is like playing Golem Charge Warlord over Earth Wizard
It IS more fun playing the non-Wizard - but the efficiency geek in me can't help notice it is suboptimal
Because the mage card buys no relevant ability, Wiz is 1 more Channel for 4-6 less Life, I'll take that
Then we come to the spell point bonanza that is Arcane (Water Wizard may even fill all 80 book slots)
It has all been discussed ad nauseam, most recently in relative new player Sylex's damning appraisal
I so envy the unadulterated joy you get from the game, Silverclaw, your enthusiastic posts
Makes me feel so jaded and cynical: so don't listen to me, just continue to have great fun!
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Ah I've logged on for 2 minutes and already the ever present cry of "Wizard is Superman!" fills my ears hehehehe. I'll have to try it if for no other reason than to learn how to defeat it with other mages.
Wanna know the kick in the teeth? I can't make a Wizard. Literally can not. We had a "Mage Wars Day" at a buddies house the other week and there were I dunno 8 folks there. Now at the time our group only had 4 people with core sets so we let others make mages out of our stuff. A friend asked to make the Wizard from my cards and I said "Sure buddy why not!" So he takes one of my Elemental Wands, one of my Mage Wands, EVERY SINGLE lightning card I own, and makes the Wizard(using another friends empty book.)
Then after we're done he takes it home with him so nobody will mess up "his" deck. There's a nation wide man hunt for me now due to his brutal and lets face it way too drawn out murder so if any of you guys know of some good ways to smuggle myself to Brazil.....
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You shouldn't have let him take your cards if you didn't want him to. Instead you should have insisted that he write down his decklist so that he can assemble it again the next time he sees you.
What it sounds like is that he pressured you to let him keep your cards, and you caved into the pressure. That sounds sort of like stealing to be honest.
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You shouldn't have let him take your cards if you didn't want him to. Instead you should have insisted that he write down his decklist so that he can assemble it again the next time he sees you.
What it sounds like is that he pressured you to let him keep your cards, and you caved into the pressure. That sounds sort of like stealing to be honest.
Except I didn't know he was going to take the cards. He didn't ask if he could take them home with him. In the confusion of cleaning up 4 core games with markers, dice, cards, etc he just slipped it in his book bag. He also didn't ask to use my buddies empty book, I thought he'd used one of mine. He asked if he could make a book, just like a few others did, only they gave theirs back at the end.
There are now seven of us with core sets, he's not one of them, so this issue won't be happening so much in the future. I date one of his roommates and will be getting my book back soon enough.