Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Douglas_Anders on November 17, 2013, 01:30:46 PM
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I love the new necromancer, but he seems to be beaten by the priestess rather easily, because of a few things.
1) The priestess has quite a few things that get bonuses against undead and zombie.
2) The angels all have flying, and the undead don't have many things with reach or flying.
3) The Necromancer himself does not have very many weapons, so so he's not very good at soloing.
4) Most of the zombies are lumbering or slow so the priestess has time to save mana and build temples.
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1) The only thing unique to the Priest/Priestess that I can find that has a bonus vs non-living creatures is the Staff of Asyra. Besides that, there are a few Holy spells that also have such a bonus, but any mage can use those including future Holy mages, it just happens that the Priest/Priestess is currently the best at utilizing them. Those few holy spells are Samandriel, Pillar of Light, and Blinding Flash. That is all.
Pillar of Light and Blinding Flash are not a huge concern. The bonus vs nonliving means Pillar of Light will be doing equal initial damage to your undead as a Flameblast would (and then you compare the benefits of Daze vs Burn). Meanwhile, Blinding Flash is still doing less damage than a Ring of Fire. I don't believe that these provide the Priest/Priestess with a significant advantage.
So, you're left with the problems of Samandriel and Staff of Asyra. These probably are more powerful vs a Necromancer than similar cost/level spells are. However, they are only 2 spells and can not be duplicated within the arena (as one is legendary and the other is equipment). I might make them priorities, but I would deal with them the same way as any big beefy creature or annoying equipment.
2) Flyers can present a problem for any mage not prepared for them. Some mages may have more ways to combat them than others, but they all have ways to do so. I would recommend reading this strategy guide on how to combat flyers http://magewars.com/jsite/strategy-guides/item/84-strategy-guide-example (http://magewars.com/jsite/strategy-guides/item/84-strategy-guide-example) and then adjust your spellbook/strategy.
3) Then don't solo with him. Play to his strengths.
4) I will agree that zombies are not great for an aggressive rushing strategy and your opponent will have time to build up if you use them. If you want to use zombies, I recommend that you adopt a more long term plan rather than rushing. I posted a suggested build that would love to face an opponent that gave it time to build up, in which by turn 3 I was producing 17 mana per turn and 2 creatures + a quick spell per turn, without having cast any mana crystals or harmonizes. Give me some time to get those out as well, and I believe I could out produce the Priest/Priestess.
On the other hand, if you don't want to compete with the Priest/Priestess in a long, slow game of out developing one another, you could try using different creatures. Skeletons don't have the same inherent weaknesses, and don't forget about the other creatures at your disposal. Adramalech doesn't take up many more spellpoints for a Necromancer than he does for a Warlock.
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Adramalech doesn't take up many more spellpoints for a Necromancer than he does for a Warlock.
Actually, Adramalech costs a Necromancer 8 points to put into her/his book, whereas a Warlock spends 6.
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Actually, Adramalech costs a Necromancer 8 points to put into her/his book, whereas a Warlock spends 6.
Yes. I consider that to be not "many more" spellpoints. An Adramalech Necromancer build is possible.
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Actually, Adramalech costs a Necromancer 8 points to put into her/his book, whereas a Warlock spends 6.
Yes. I consider that to be not "many more" spellpoints. An Adramalech Necromancer build is possible.
True, I apologize.
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The priestess/priest is a great matchup for the necro- and I can assure you, she may have some advantages, but never does she have it easy.
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Thanks for all the great answers, but I have one more question. When you reanimate one of your opponents creatures using the ziggurat of undeadth or rise again do you automatically gain control of it? These cards do not specify if you gain control of what you reanimated.
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Thanks for all the great answers, but I have one more question. When you reanimate one of your opponents creatures using the ziggurat of undeadth or rise again do you automatically gain control of it? These cards do not specify if you gain control of what you reanimated.
Wow, I just checked the rules and that's true. I think it is implied though - in the definition of Reanimate in the Codex, it says "the creature card...is Summoned into play." Since you control the Reanimate effect, you would also control the Summoning effect, which means you would control the creature too.
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That is an amazing catch, Douglas_Anders. Neither the specific spells nor the general reanimate rules specify that you gain control of it.
The spell says you Reanimate it.
Reanimate says you Summon it.
Summon says you Cast it.
So, the question becomes whether or not you necessarily control every spell you Cast. When you are casting spells from your own spellbook, it seems obvious that you would control them. However, when you cast your opponent's spells, such as with Rise Again, it becomes a little more questionable.
Yes you control the spell causing the summon, but you do not begin with control of the creature spell being summoned. Does the act of summoning confer control to you?
I think most people would agree their intention is for you to have control, but it is not made clear by the rules. They need to answer whether Reanimate grants you control, or Summoning gives you control, or Casting gives you control of a spell.
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The Comprehensive Rules of Magic: the Gathering specify in section 110.2a "If an effect instructs a player to put an object onto the battlefield, that object enters the battlefield under that player’s control unless the effect states otherwise."
Most CCG's follow a similar rule, and I think that most Mage Wars players will draw upon that experience and background to assume that that is how it works in Mage Wars as well. However, it would be nice if it could be specified for us by the rules of our game.
If that is how it works in Mage Wars, then you most definitely would control the creature that you reanimated.
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So, the question becomes whether or not you necessarily control every spell you Cast. When you are casting spells from your own spellbook, it seems obvious that you would control them. However, when you cast your opponent's spells, such as with Rise Again, it becomes a little more questionable.
I think it is a basic assumption of the game rules that you gain control of all spells you cast at the time you cast them (any game's rules, in fact). The rulebook doesn't say "you control the spells you cast" anywhere in it, but if someone you were playing against started trying to take control of your creatures or attack spells as you cast them, saying "The rules don't necessarily say that you control these!" would you actually think that argument had merit?
However you do not necessarily control all spells you own. In the case of Reverse Attack/Magic, the owner of the attack/spell is the person who originally performed the spell/attack, but control of that spell/attack transfers due to the card's effects. Those cards have the "you control this attack/spell" wording because they need it; I don't think the Reanimate effect needs it.
Since this question came up at all it is probably worth putting a clarification in the FAQ...however it is perfectly safe to assume that yes, whoever controls the Reanimate effect also controls the creature that is summoned as a result of it. Otherwise what would be the benefit to the Reanimator?
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Mage Wars Rules Book: Codex:
Controller
Each spell or object in the game is controlled by the player who cast it. The
controller may use and act with that object, and makes all decisions and
choices for that spell or any abilities that object may have.
*You also control all spells your spawnpoints and families cast.
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Thank you Darth! Somehow I missed that as I combed over things. The definition of controller does indeed cover whenever you cast a spell, and the rules for spawnpoints and familiars specifies that when they cast a spell their controller has control of the spell they cast as well. However, Rise Again and Ziggurat of Undeath are neither your mage, a familiar, nor a spawnpoint. And the cards are not completely clear on whether it is your mage that is Reanimating the creature or whether it is the Spell you cast that is Reanimating the creature. And if it is the Spell that is Reanimating it, I still find no place in the rules that states who would technically control it.
would you actually think that argument had merit?
If they were creatures that he owned, that I put on the board, that neither player cast, and the rules don't state who controls them, then yes I would definitely say that argument has merit. I am kind of playing devil's advocate here, I agree 100% that the intent is for you to gain control of the reanimated creature, but I can see where there exists grounds for argument.
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Both Rise Again and Ziggurat of Undeath say "you may pay X mana to Reanimate it". I think the "you" implies that the Mage is the controller of the Reanimate effects, which implies that he controls the Summoning effect, which implies that he casts the spell, which implies that he controls it.
It is important to mull these things over though, to make sure that correct play is understood and enforced, so I appreciate your advocating of the devil, so to speak. I think your argument makes sense.
Also, in regards to your first reply on this topic, I think that Samandriel is still a pretty big problem for the Necromancer. Some of the things that article suggests to counter flyers, like Suppression Orb or Mordok's Obelisk, really should not be played by a Necromancer. Archers would work, as in the Skeleton Archers, but I think Samandriel could deal with those pretty easily. Guarding is probably the better play, however only the Zombie Brute or Skeletal Knight can really guard effectively against her. Ultimately I think the Necromancer will have to use out-of-theme cards to deal with her, like Maim Wings or Sleep or what have you.
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I think I've advocated as far as I can or care to, lol.
Regarding Samandriel, I whole heartedly agree that both she and the Staff of Asyra are overpowered for their Level and Mana Cost vs a Necromancer. They are huge threats and I would definitely prioritize their removal. However, I don't think I would go about that removal in any way differently than I would another aggravating piece of equipment or big beefy creature. Dissolve, Restrain, Incapacitate. There are tools to deal with them which would work equally well against other mages. Nothing special needs to be included to counter those two spells specifically.
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Easiest way for Necromancer to deal with flyers is Main Wings, they only cost him 1 spell point per copy to run.
He can also run Necropian Vampiress for her selective flying ability to "leap" at troublesome fliers, and since she's living she doesn't suffer from the non-living damage bonus on most light attacks if guarding and since she's vampiric she can heal herself if you are running Pestillence Idol or anything like that. Vampiric also makes her a great guard, since she gets to heal herself on the counterstrike. Skeletal Archers, or even Flaming Hellions can offer ranged support and the Necromancer can use Drain Soul/Life as a finisher against a flier. (Drain Soul is nice because it puts Taint markers on them, which then lets you melt the creature with your Plague Master ability)
Also, if the Deathshroud Staff isn't your thing you can run Mage Staff instead and give yourself the Reach Trait to hit back at fliers. Being a Dark Mage the Necromancer can also use Sectarus if you want to play him more aggressively. With Sectarus you can "lead from the front" a bit and cast things like Rise Again or Marked for Death while softening up a creature. Marked for Death is a good play for the Necromancer since you can't use buffs like Bear Strength to boost non-living minions, and the more creatures you have attacking the more damage it generates every round.
Using Cloak of Shadows + Demonhide Armor (or even just leather armors), and guarding on your mage can help protect your troops from that light attack bonus/Staff of Asyra, and keep the damage low on your end. the Light -2 means you are very hard to Stun, as most holy effects stun on 9, 10 or higher on the effect die. Also, Agony helps counter out the damage bonus on holy creatures as well. Cloak of Shadows can be particularly annoying for the Priest, as he doesn't have a non-Light melee attack to opt for to get around the Light-2, though he can of course use his auto-burn.
One of the biggest annoyance the Priestess offers against the Necromancer is that she can always remove poison conditions before you really get an opportunity to get much mileage out of your Plague Master ability, its especially pesky if you are trying to use Ichthilleds as she can purge its egg from the creature and prevent the hatch from occurring.
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Very nice post, Baronzaltor. I hadn't even considered the Cloak of Shadows. My Priest really does not like that.
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1) The only thing unique to the Priest/Priestess that I can find that has a bonus vs non-living creatures is the Staff of Asyra. Besides that, there are a few Holy spells that also have such a bonus, but any mage can use those including future Holy mages, it just happens that the Priest/Priestess is currently the best at utilizing them. Those few holy spells are Samandriel, Pillar of Light, and Blinding Flash. That is all.
Temple of Light? Pay 1 for 3 attack daze/stun ready marker action burst? It's like a Wizard's Tower with a very cheap Pillar of Light.
The problem with Necromancer is his match-ups, too many silver bullets out there.
3 Nature Mages will now pack Kralathor.
2 Holy Mages have Light attacks vs Non-Living.
Wizards/Forcemaster destroy his swarm with Obelisk/Orb and have greater mobility with Teleport/Force spells.
Warlock has Fire and Chains against Resilient (though Deathlock and total Poison Immunity hurts the Warlock).
Warlord has Sniper Watchtower behind a corner Wall (though Pestilence kills him, with Deathlock if Regrowth).
I'm not saying the Necromancer is weak (he has interesting synergies like "last action animate dead Malacoda"), just that he faces many silver bullets. To minimise these worries, you end up over-distilling the essence of his synergies. So you end up taking gambles that you won't meet a particular match-up. Just like my dislike of d12, I shy away from polarised builds which can sometimes give you walkovers and sometimes is walked over, it's just match-up lottery. It's why I avoid Jokhtari. She is amazing in some match-ups (now with Raptors, Thornlashers and Stanglevine) but Wounded Prey is useless against Necromancer and Earth Wizard (who now has 4 Oozes to add to 4 Golems for leveraging Necromancer's non-living synergies without his undead liability).
In fact, despite Corrode (which ended up peripheral), if you create a crosstab of mage vs. mage, Earth Wizard's 8x non-living level 3s build comes out possibly strongest against other mages. Last time, he stole Warlord's Earth spells. Now he steals Necromancer's Non-Living synergies. 4 Golems, 4 Oozes, 4 Wands, 4 Teleports, just add other tricks to suit taste. The only thing to compete with Brute's cost-benefit ratio are Golems and Oozes (which do not trigger Bloodthirsty).
So far the most interesting Zombie build I've devised is "Forcemaster Brute Squad", opening sprint to NC then 4 Zombie Brutes turns 2-5 and possibly 14 Channel by turn 5 (as per my post in Zuberi's Zombie Horde thread), using Forcemaster's unrivalled ability to manipulate board position (Force Pull, Stumble, Force Hold, Force Push, Force Wave) to allow your Brute Squad to solely focus on enemy mage only (moving a guard away or a mage from multiple guards) while Forcemaster utilises her own defences against any counter-aggro. As I am learning the subtleties of this awesome-looking Jedi/Sith Lord, I am excited to see if this works but the theory (Force spells complement Lumbering Brutes perfectly) feels sound. Although I'll probably slow down mana acceleration for the spell action advantage of a Forge.
Maybe the undead horde works. Just that a horde is by definition a "win more" over-commitment, waiting for an Obelisk to fall in a guarded distant corner. It just feels like "over-playing your hand". I hope I'm wrong because thematically, raising the dead is much more appealing than tending to my garden.
The Druid on the other hand seems so much fun (once you suspend disbelief). Bear Strength on Raptor Vines. Hawkeyed Thornlashers snatching through Bloodspine Walls into a safe Eagle Winged Vine Snapper and Togorah with Cobra Reflexes (shame no counter strike). I never thought I'd like vegetables so much. Shame she dies to fire (Renewing Rain doesn't solve Flame +2). It's a match-up lottery again.
Back to the thread: I think a certain flying skeletal undead dragon not making the cut may have been crucial to Necromancer's competitive viability. I truly hope I'm wrong.
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Ok, about my first question,
I posted a suggested build that would love to face an opponent that gave it time to build up, in which by turn 3 I was producing 17 mana per turn and 2 creatures + a quick spell per turn, without having cast any mana crystals or harmonizes. /quote]
Where is a link to this list?
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Here it is, Douglas_Anders: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13230.0